What happens when we recycle? I think recycling is an area that needs work. I think most people would rather buy a book than read online or on the computer. I bought a book this last weekend and found it much easier to read than if it had been a PDF and I was reading on the computer. I spend too much time on the computer anyway. Even though I make my living off technology I like to get away from it as often as possible. I find the old fashion way of reading is still a good thing. ------------------------ Keith Smith --- On Mon, 5/4/09, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > From: Joshua Zeidner > Subject: Re: OT: Linux in a Nutshell (O'Reilly book) > To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 10:50 PM > I think its pretty clear at this > point that paper usage is a problem, > so Im not really going to argue that point. > > your anecdote about e-waste is not really a fair point > either, > because 1 PC can process millions of documents that would > be printed > otherwise- so its not really a valid comparison. > > > and PDF with a cc-by license. I purchaced the book > anyways, because the > > additional value I get from the printed version > justifies the cost, for me. > > > > there is the aspect of 'memorializing' an idea by buying > the book- > again its really a sentimental thing at its core. It > seems that > yourself and others on here think that this indulgence is a > trivial > and innocent one, but I would suggest taking a look at the > scale of > paper use. Its out of control, even if you choose to > ignore the > 'killing trees' aspect, the garbage produced is enough to > justify > immediate action. The name 'Kindle' Im sure was not > chosen > arbitrarily. > > Regarding IP laws and economics, its a hot area and > Im sure there > will be legal and philosophical developments in this area > in years to > come. > > -jmz > > > > On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 10:28 PM, A. W. Wright > > wrote: > > (Since we are top-posting) > > > > In your opinion! I am more then happy to pay my $10 > for 1/500th of a > > tree planted and harvested and processed by private > companies on their > > own private property, or resources that would have > been cut down and > > gone unused otherwise. We don't cut down rainforests > for paper > > (rainforests are really only cut down for clearing > land). I > > mean, /everyone/ knows trees are /not/ renewable > resources. > > Companies have hundreds of thousands of acres of land > just for trees, in > > New England where I lived, the land would be leased > for tapping maple > > syrup among other things. What about the alternative? > If people don't > > buy books, what would they be doing instead that might > possibly be more > > harmful? I don't suppose anyone considered how many > more times E-waste > > uses, and how harmful it is? Or some other activity > other then > > reading/computing altogether? > > > > I happen to own (one) O'Reilly book (Firefox Hacks) > and found it very > > useful. Fact is online references just can't replace > printed > > instructional materials. For instance the book Man, > Economy, and State, > > great publication available online at http://mises.org/rothbard/mes.asp > > and PDF with a cc-by license. I purchaced the book > anyways, because the > > additional value I get from the printed version > justifies the cost, for me. > > > > While we are on the subject of copyright, http://mises.org/story/2632 . > > Tagging OT. I often wonder which industries would be > more or less > > successful without IP laws, and how the economy has > evolved around it > > and been distorted by it. Perhaps the movie theater > industry would exist > > (because contract law would still protect movies) but > DVDs, which are > > the bulk of the profits, would be very different. > Patents would no > > longer be a concern, since especially nowadays the > cost of not > > innovating at all is still lower then the cost of > innovating without a > > patent and the associated monopoly (or would be offset > by the increased > > ability to use innovations you were previously not > able to legally). > > Trademarks would still exist in some sense, since you > wouldn't be able > > to claim it is a genuine X brand product (that would > be fraud since you > > are not getting the product you were promised). > > > > Austin Wright. > > > > Joshua Zeidner wrote: > >> On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Alan Dayley > wrote: > >> > >>> I don't understand the negativity around dead > tree media. > >>> > >> > >> The criticisms are complex. Primarily, > chopping down rain forests > >> to explain to someone how to write Perl is > considered wasteful and > >> excessive[1]. Its obvious to anyone who is > serious about development > >> that a few google queries rivals what you can find > in any printed > >> technical manual ( for $69.95 ). The core issue > though is what I > >> mention elsewhere in this thread, currently there > is no dependable way > >> to enforce compensation for authors other than > print. Where there is > >> no compensation, there is low or no quality. > Amazon has an > >> interesting initiative, the Kindle, but history > has shown that all DRM > >> schemes will eventually be hacked- so its just a > matter of time before > >> people are reading 'bootlegged' copy on their > Kindles. Secondly this > >> raises the familiar issues of the excesses of > copyright. As we begin > >> to rely more and more on legal authority in the > realm of ideas, we > >> start to encounter more and more exploitation (ie. > people copyrighting > >> chord progressions or yoga postures). We have > yet to find a practical > >> system that works and promotes innovation and art, > obviously progress > >> needs to be made in understanding what factors are > at stake here and > >> how to effectively address them. > >> > >> -jmz > >> > >> [1] Americans use more than 50 million tons of > paper each year, > >> consuming more than 850 million trees > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> It has many > >>> advantages, including ultimate portability and > no dead batteries. I > >>> currently have multiple O'Reilly books above > my computer here, all of > >>> which I have actually used, some more than > others. My Linux Pocket > >>> Guide is an excellent reference. There's > just something about having > >>> three fingers between different sections of a > book and flipping > >>> between them while learning! > >>> > >>> O'Reilly, as a company, has provided excellent > support for > >>> Linux/FS/OSS with books and conferences and > direct support for PLUG. > >>> Sure, it made good business sense for them to > do it or they probably > >>> wouldn't but, that's OK because we both win. > O'Reilly is supporting > >>> new avenues of knowledge spreading with > efforts like Ignite events > >>> (http://www.ignitephoenix.com) > >>> > >>> While I believe printed books will be come > less and less important, I > >>> hope they don't go away completely. And I > have learned something from > >>> every O'Reilly book I own. That they have a > book named "favorite > >>> Linux book of all time" is another bonus to > them. > >>> > >>> Alan > >>> > >>> On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 7:02 PM, Craig White > > wrote: > >>> > >>>> I'm not sure why I am bothering with this > but I do happen to own many > >>>> dead tree edition computer books including > many O'Reilly books but truth > >>>> be told, they are decorating my office by > residing on shelves instead of > >>>> my desk so I think your characterization > is slightly too narrow. > >>>> > >>>> It's also hard to ignore that O'Reilly > actually has contributed stuff to > >>>> PLUG and has solicited the list for > reviewers which makes me think that > >>>> the commentaries are overly harsh. > >>>> > >>>> Lastly, it is obvious that both Lisa and > Joshua don't seem to care that > >>>> Gerald expressed a personal pride > connection with this particular book > >>>> and I would like to ask Gerald what his > connection was to "Linux in a > >>>> Nutshell?" > >>>> > >>>> Craig > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, 2009-05-04 at 18:39 -0700, Joshua > Zeidner wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> agreed. O'reilly = lame. The price > of those books is hardly worth > >>>>> the information in them. They're > mainly used for decorating the desks > >>>>> of poser developers. > >>>>> > >>>>> -jmz > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 6:34 PM, Lisa > Kachold > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Snore! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Bored with the under publishing of > technical books, and over blown accolades > >>>>>> for the few available.... > >>>>>> > >>>>>> O'Really now! > >>>>>> I own that book BTW (and the Unix > in A Nutshell it was patterned afer was > >>>>>> well used too) but I find the > actual sources of each distribution more > >>>>>> useful (man, cat /proc/cpuinfo, > ls, find) than that book, which is far from > >>>>>> current or distro specific. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> big yawn with dreamy bleary eyes > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 12:41 PM, > Gerald Thurman > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Tim O'Reilly just tweeted > this... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Linux Journal Reader's Choice > Awards: Linux in a Nutshell favorite Linux > >>>>>>> book of all time. I'm honored. > http://bit.ly/hhTBH > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > settings: > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss