On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 6:13 PM, keith smith wrote: > Just remember everything must pass the test of the constitution. > > Look at the DC gun law. Look at the secret trials of the combatants. It > all comes to pass. sure, even one day this country called America will come to pass. perhaps sooner than later. -jmz > > > > > ------------------------ > Keith Smith > (520) 207-9877 > PHP Programmer > > > > --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > From: Joshua Zeidner > Subject: Re: OT: Survelliance in America > To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 5:05 PM > > The greatest travesty in my opinion is that we have already > worked > through the problems that Craig cites, that is why FISA was created in > the first place! Allowing our intelligence agencies free and > unrestricted access to such information gives far too much privilege > to a small group. > > The fact that this bill makes it legal to break the law (a very > important law) shows how utterly degraded our justice system has > become. Given this legislation has become law, we can no longer > assume that any law on the books that is designed to protect us is > even valid, because apparently any law may be broken and its violators > may be 'retroactively immunized'. And the fact that politicians who > reportedly represent us are supporting it, show how totally useless > our legislative system is. What the next progression is for America > is anyones guess. > > All in the name of 'safety'. Safety from what precisely? > > -jmz > > > On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Craig White > > wrote: >> On Sat, 2008-06-28 at 15:58 -0700, Jason Spatafore wrote: >>> We shouldn't be as worried about being monitored as we should be > worried >>> about admission of the monitored activities in a court of law. >>> >>> I think it should be fine to be monitored on the Internet, just like > you >>> shouldn't have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" > when walking down >>> the street. The Internet is essentially a publicly monitored, yet >>> private roadway. Anything going over the wires can and should be >>> permitted to be monitored. When you pay a toll for a toll road, do you >>> expect no cameras to be there because you paid to be on that road? The >>> Internet is the same. >>> >>> However, I do not believe that such monitoring should be allowed in a >>> court of law as "evidence" or that such monitoring > should be > permitted >>> as "public information". >>> >>> What I mean here is that I think it should be illegal for a person to >>> post a picture passed via email (or the email itself) onto a newsgroup >>> or forum and mark it as "public information". Such an act > should be >>> considered illegal by some type of law, whether it's slander or > some >>> other already established law. >>> >>> I also don't believe that such monitoring should be permitted to > obtain >>> a warrant to monitor nor should it be admissible as evidence. It >>> shouldn't be illegal to *listen*, but it should be illegal to > "repeat" >>> or take action based off the information (much like insider trading >>> laws). If I spy on my neighbor by packet sniffing his router, that >>> should not be illegal. However, whatever I *do* with the information I >>> > obtained should be punishable by law. The same standards should be > held >>> to the government. >>> >>> Yes, you should be able to listen. No, you cannot do anything with > what >>> you've heard. >>> >>> Of course, you can take it one step further and ask: "Should the >>> government be permitted to hack into your computer and watch you on > the >>> webcam connected to the PC?" >>> >>> That's where I would say "No". The difference is because > they are >>> opening the door, not you. When you go online (physically take action >>> to surf the net or send email), you are opening the door and stepping >>> out into the street. When your computer is just connected to the >>> Internet, then you are not out in the street...your door is closed and >>> your expectation of privacy should be protected. (Locking your door is >>> not an > argument...you shouldn't have to lock your door to expect >>> privacy....you should only have to close it.) >> ---- >> There are multiple issues here. The one that seemed absolutely clear cut >> was the issue of immunity for the telecoms because that prevents any >> disclosure about what was done which seems to have been conducted >> without legal authority. There are numerous trials in process that would >> force the disclosure of what has been done on whose authority and this >> is too important to allow it to be secreted away forever. >> >> To actually discuss the current FISA legislation without weighing in on >> the topic of retroactive immunity for the telecoms is a signal that you >> don't have a clue what the topic of discussion actually is. >> >> The other issue is that this particular administration has proven that >> government is not to be trusted because they > taken overly broad claims >> of secrecy needs to prevent disclosure - to the point where they are >> actually trying to conduct trials against accused persons without having >> to disclose their evidence because of secrecy claims. >> >> The erosion of public trust and the guarantees contained in the Bill of >> Rights is sickening and should send a chill through all Americans. What >> we have done in response to an isolated terrorist action on our soil is >> nothing short of completely stupid. >> >> Government uses fear against the people and we succeed when we have >> transparency, not secrecy. >> >> I cringe at the thought that the bulk of the citizens in the US don't >> get this. >> >> Craig >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to > change your mail settings: >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> > > > > -- > > - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/ > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/ --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss