I hope that this guy is paid by Microsoft to say these things because otherwise, it would be a complete waste of time. He needs to turn his attention to wikipedia On Fri, 2007-09-14 at 14:22 -0700, David Munson wrote: > This should not be read by those who experience blinding rage when > confronted by people who obviously don't know what they're talking > about, those with heart conditions, those with psychological > conditions, women who are pregnant or nursing, or any sane human > being. > > This is a little bit (a lot) off topic, but it does relate to Linux, > so I felt I would pass it along. You may already be familiar with Mr > Jerry Lee Cooper and his works through digg.com and similar sites. If > so, you know what follows. If not, and if you wish to bear witness to > a new level of crazy, keep reading. If you haven't see the dozen or > more of his complete works, they are presented below, in chronological > order. > > The AUSLUG and PLUG lists have been kind of quiet today, so I figured > I'd kick up some activity if anyone's listening. What follows is not > for the faint of heart, and probably not safe for human consumption. > > This guy either has no idea what he's talking about, or he's a troll. > I think he's a troll, but it's up to you to decide for yourself. The > JerryLeeCooper that comes up on some other forums is probably not the > same guy, or evidence that this is in fact a troll. I suspect he's not > the same guy, since the name on the forums shows up some months after > the ZDnet postings. > > Each of these entries is either in response to a ZDnet report or > editorial, or a comment posted under one of the reports or editorials. > > He seems to have something against Linux, and is under the impression > that MS is the Lord and Master of All Things Computer. Anyway, I've > collected his comments off of ZDnet here, in chronological order, for > your enjoyment. > > A little Google search for < site:talkback.zdnet.com "jerryleecooper's > comment">, will turn up all his posts in all their glory, but not in > chronological order, if you want to see the original stories and > comments that prompted each insanity. > > I have added commentary above each entry, to better clarify the topic > he's addressing. Each comment of his has a title, and the date it was > posted. Again, these should all be in chronological order, for better > enjoyment of the crazy. Same-day posts are arranged in what I perceive > to be the proper order, but that's just my opinion. > > Enjoy, if you dare! > > > > On Vista: > > Vista is the Future > Its clearly evident that vista is the future. > > One only has to watch TV for a short period of time and see the advertising. > > WOW !! > > I personally love the part where the young man is taking a stroll in > the delightful snow covered streets, and sees firsthand a young deer > with a gleefull glint in its eye. It sends a shiver down my spine. > WOW is all I can say. > > Vista is clearly the future of enterprise computing. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 03/13/07 > > > On hearing about Linux: > > that wont work without THEFT of intellectual property > Linux looks very interesting, even if some of the screen colours and > menu options appear to be a little out of the ordinary. > > But you are missing a vital point, a point which takes some experience > and depth of knowledge in the field of computers. You see, when a > computer boots up, it needs to load various drivers and then load > various services. This happens long before the operating system and > other applications are available. > > Linux is a marvellous operating system in its own right, and even > comes in several different flavours. However, as good as these > flavours are, they first need Microsoft Windows to load the services > prior to use. > > In Linux, the open office might be the default for editing your > wordfiles, and you might prefer ubuntu brown over the grassy knoll of > the windows desktop, but mark my words young man - without the > windows drivers sitting below the visible surface, allowing the linus > to talk to the hardware, it is without worth. > > And so, by choosing your linux as an alternative to windows on the > desktop, you still need a windows licence to run this operating system > through the windows drivers to talk to the hardware. Linux is only a > code, it cannot perform the low level function. > > My point being, young man, that unless you intend to pirate and steal > the Windows drivers and services, how is using the linux going to save > money ? Well ? It seems that no linux fan can ever provide a straight > answer to that question ! > > May as well just stay legal, run the Windows drivers, and run Office > on the desktop instead of the linus. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 03/13/07 > > > on being told that Vista might prompt people to choose Linux: > > It wont happen > I dont see how this will happen at all. > > Vista is far more powerful than windows XP, and runs twice as fast. It > is also much harder to pirate, and this point more than anything else > has the Linux crowd in a panic. > > It wont be long until Windows XP is no longer supported, and when that > happens, what is Linux going to do ? > > Linux will have to find a way to work under Vista from here on, since > it wont be able to rely on XP being readily available anymore. > > Linux may seem like a good alternative to Office, but all that is > happening in linux is that the windows interface is cleverly hidden > away. It still needs the drivers and software services in order to > run, and in most cases - that happens WITHOUT a valid windows licence. > > This is just plain piracy. > > Vista will finally put an end to this blatant abuse of intellectual > property, and linux should decline, taking the pirates with it. > > Anyone that supports the continuation of Windows XP in place of Vista > surely has a hidden agenda .. and you will surely be caught out. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 03/13/07 > > > on being told that Linux is a true operating system, and doesn't need Windows: > > You are kidding arent you ? > Are you saying that this linux can run on a computer without windows > underneath it, at all ? As in, without a boot disk, without any > drivers, and without any services ? > > That sounds preposterous to me. > > If it were true (and I doubt it), then companies would be selling > computers without a windows. This clearly is not happening, so there > must be some error in your calculations. I hope you realise that > windows is more than just Office ? Its a whole system that runs the > computer from start to finish, and that is a very difficult thing to > acheive. A lot of people dont realise this. > > Microsoft just spent $9 billion and many years to create Vista, so it > does not sound reasonable that some new alternative could just snap > into existence overnight like that. It would take billions of dollars > and a massive effort to achieve. IBM tried, and spent a huge amount of > money developing OS/2 but could never keep up with Windows. Apple > tried to create their own system for years, but finally gave up > recently and moved to Intel and Microsoft. > > Its just not possible that a freeware like the Linux could be extended > to the point where it runs the entire computer fron start to finish, > without using some of the more critical parts of windows. Not > possible. > > I think you need to re-examine your assumptions. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 03/14/07 > > > on MS vs Unix, and MS marketing tactics: > > Scalability is the key > Much of this analysis consists of splitting hairs over the finer > details of decisions that were made at the very dawn of the computer > IT industry. > > So Microsoft leveraged their success with DOS off of mainframe systems > such as the CP/M ? Clunky old machines with green screens and > keyboards so big and heavy that they are physically impossible to > type on. I remember them well. > > That was then - lets fast forward now to 2007. Computers are so much > faster, graphics cards are 3D capable, the keyboards are easier to > use, and the mouse makes life a breeze. > > And we have the internet - 99% of which runs on Internet Explorer. > > How can you be so blind as to say that Microsoft has not given us any > innovation ? I find that comment simply astounding !! You cant > honestly suggest that we would be better off using the CPM machines > on a mainframe ? > > On the surface there are many obvious innovations .. such as a > graphical system with a mouse, the Office, not to mention the internet > that is basically a totally Microsoft platform these days .. (need I > go on ?) > > But if you care to look below the obvious surface, you will find the > true innovation that Microsoft has bought us. Let me spell it out for > you : > > SCALABILITY > > The ability to extend performance above and beyond the ordinary. Thats > the true innovation that Microsoft has bought to the world, and they > have done it by redefining software engineering, and backing it with > billions of dollars. > > Who else has been able to do this ? Nobody that I can see. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 03/22/07 > > > on security in OSX: > > The extra chip in the Mac OSX > Very interesting. You mention that the Mac OSX machine includes an > extra chip that handles the security ? > > Well Ill have you know that Microsoft Vista includes a BitLocker in > the system which takes this a step further. The BitLocker is software > based, and so protects the data flow within the computer above and > beyond what happens over the serial line. > > In addition to this fact, the Microsoft SQLServer wraps the data in a > form that can be made accessible on a user by user basis. The Mac OSX > chip is hardware, and so cannot distinguish activities at the user > level. > > This dual existence of both BitLocker and SQLServer is what is termed > 'Double Data Protection', which I am sure you will admit is a more > secure methodology than the single chip that the Mac OSX appears to be > using. > > This gets very exciting when one imagines what might happen when the > operating system and the SQLServer are integrated as one unit. > Microsoft will be leading the way in computer security when this very > vision is realized with the release of the Win FS as part of Vista II. > You mark my words, it will make the Mac OSX obsolete. > > But there is more .... > > I happen to have extensive experience at the very heights of the > corporate enterprise IT, and this includes exclusive contacts deep > within the heirachy of a certain company in Redmond. > > I can assure you that there are moves afoot to include a very similar > chip that is in the Mac OSX in the next version of Vista. > > Whilst not being privy to exact details of discussions at the highest > level of the corporate IT, I can extrapolate my experience to present > a scenario which is entirely realistic : > > 1 - Microsoft worked alongside the Apple to develop the next > generation of security measures, using a 'Triple Data Protection' > scheme involving BitLocker, SQLServer, and an as yet untested security > chip. > > 2 - After providing Apple with its best virus protection algorithms > (an algorithm is an advanced computer code), Microsoft discovers that > Apple has no equivalent offering to add to the partnership. > > 3 - The partnership dissolves, but Apple pirates the Microsoft > algorithm, which is designed around the Pentium super chip, and then > proceeds to convert their machines across to the Intel. > > 4 - Apple adds this 'security chip' that you mention, (which more than > likely contains the Microsoft anti virus algorithm), giving it a > highly secure offering to bring to the market. An unfair advantage in > anyone's eyes you would have to admit. > > Well, the simple fact that the Mac OSX already has over 700 malwares, > despite the existence of the security chip AND Microsoft's dearly > guarded anti-virus algorithm, indicates that Apple does not have the > expertise to engineer an IT miracle on this scale. > > That will all change soon when Microsoft completes the engineering on > their next generation of Vista. > > Hold onto your seats gentlemen, its going to be a blast !! > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 03/22/07 > > > on why someone on ZDnet is having problems running Linux: > > The linux cannot reliably be employed on modern hardware > Yes, well, I did receive quite a few pointed 'pointers' about linux > not requiring windows, but I am yet to be convinced on that score. > > I did witness first hand just the other day, a demonstration of a > machine loading up the linux, and several points piqued my interest > for sure. > > Firstly, the machine loaded into the Microsoft boot sequence prior to > loading the linux. This is the segment of the operating system which > counts down the memory, and configures the A:, C: and D: drives prior > to loading the Microsoft windows. Although the machine did not display > the familiar windows animation, it was obvious that the linux was > freeloading off the back of this prior installation/boot sequence. The > aforementioned demonstrator, upon further questioning, even admitted > that 'Oh, That part is not the linux', and then went on to confuse the > issue with technical jargon. However, one cannot mask a simple act of > piracy with excessive verbosity. A fool and his lamb are worth 2 in > the bush. > > Now - I will admit after some further research, that the linux is not > in fact a complete copy of Microsoft Windows. My research indicates > that it is in fact a copy of Unix. I bet you didnt know that young man > ? Yes, its a straight copy of Unix, even down to copying verbatim > codefiles straight from the source of Unix. I believe there is a court > case in progress regarding this latest discovery. The magnitude of the > theft is now becoming apparent. > > However, this remarkable fact may well uncover the answer to Ed Bott's > mystery linux installation failure. You see, the Unix was designed to > run within the VHF to UHF spectra (much like a radio), which is all > well and good until you consider that modern computers run in the > microwave range, at which regular radio reception starts to have > serious issues. If one were to use a UHF receiver to tune in to a > quad-phased broadcast in the Microwave spectra, one would fail > miserably. > > I would wager a bet that Ed Bott's computing apparatus was a more > contemporary design utilizing a 3GHz central processor unit (or CPU). > Under such frequencies, the linux would literally tear itself apart, > its code lacking the internal cohesion to sustain this extreme > environment. The Microsoft by comparison, is streamlined and > engineered to withstand this Microwave environment, thanks no doubt to > the forethought of its designers. > > And of this there is ample evidence, which one can easily do an > msn-search for and witness first hand. All of this evidence is on the > public record, and cannot be denied. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 03/29/07 > > > on Blue-Ray: > > blue ray is impractical for the linux > It comes as no surprise that the linux does not yet find itself > deployed on the blue ray HD DVD, for a number of reasons. > > I think you will find after some investigation that the blue ray HD > DVD is a patented invention that requires special decryption codes to > be utilised. > > Therefore it would not only be illegal for linux to use the blue ray > (not that minor questions of legality have ever stopped the Linux in > the past), but more so that linux does not yet contain the decrypter > codes required for this operation. > > And so for now, the linux finds itself constrained to the somewhat > prehistoric CD-ROM format. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 05/27/07 > > > on Novell dumping a load of documents to public access: > > Leaderships wins the day > Lets us not waste our energies on pointless arguments over exactly how > many ways the linux has infringed on other people's intellectual > property. > > The facts have already been proven, and numerous people have made > declarations in public about the level of corruption that is systemic > and prevalent in that particular 'development community'. > > Prominent and respected businessmen, such as Steve Ballmer CEO. of > Microsoft, have already been generous enough to state that the > evidence exists, and even enumerate the magnitude of this vile > misdeed. > > But nobody is threatening to sue anyone .. or argue over the who is to > blame, there is no childish 'Witch Hunt' in progress here. > > When one stands on the edge of a smoking crater, the scene of a > horrific passenger aeroplane accident, a Leader will not run about > cursing all and sundry for their part in this tragedy - NAY - A > Leader stands up and admits that a dark day has fallen upon us, but is > discrete about the details. The bodies of the fallen are covered, and > discussions with next of Kin are kept private. It is enough to know > that '235 brave souls have lost their lives on this day', and that is > enough for us to know. > > And so it is that Steve Ballmer has shown both Leadership and > Discretion of the highest order in this situation. The proven > magintude of the crime has been made public, however the details are > kept respectfully at arms length. In so doing, Microsoft is performing > a huge service for the linux developers, in not shining the lamp of > the accuser too brightly upon their guilty brows ... in effect, giving > them a second chance to direct some of their energies towards a more > productive future path. > > It is an act of the highest nobility that is rarely seen in this day and age. > > No, the real issue at hand here is - NOW that it is well known that > things have gone wrong, HOW can we restructure relationships in this > industry such that their is a way forward to a productive future ? We > can also look to Novell it seems as bastion of noble intention and > Leadership in this industry. > > The Novell-Microsoft pact is a template for all future relationships > in the IT industry, with all players in the industry purchasing > prepaid IP royalty credits from Microsoft. This makes the entire > question of IP manageable at last, and streamlines all future IT > business in a way that truly benefits everyone. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 05/28/07 > > > on buildng a FREE resource for Dell owners using Ubuntu: > > A foolhardy investment > An interesting concept perhaps, but one ultimately doomed to failure. > > I would hazard to suggest that such a venture would be like fissling > good seed onto barren ground, when one considers the target market for > this ambitious venture. > > Firstly, let us consider the target market. Those who would purchase a > Dell computer with the linux installed, typically do so with one > factor predominant in their mind's eye. That is - they choose the > linux in order to save money. Any venture that invested resources in > providing training services to this market is at a disadvantage from > the first day, since that market has already classified itself as a > penny pinching mob, collectively bereft of financial resources. > > Secondly, one must consider the technical depth of this target market. > The linux lacks the shine and technical sophistication of modern > operating systems, such as Vista. There is only so much that can be > taught to customers about the linux before one has exhausted it's > technical abilities, let alone the shallow pockets of it's users. > Selling training for advanced topics such as - Virus Protection, Disk > Defragmentation Utilities, Job Scheduling, Windows Scripting, and > Windows Clustering, Sequel Server .. all great topics that make a firm > foundation for a lucrative training program .. but these opportnities > are solely lacking in the linux world. > > And Thirdly, let us consider the professional development of this > target market. When one enters an University level course in advanced > computing with a view to a productive future in the IT industry, what > exactly do you think they teach students there ? They would hardly be > teaching the linux, the unix, or the mainframe in this day and age. > Nay - Its primarily Windows and Vista that form the foundation of a > professional career these days. One would only be doing a half > hearted disservice to users if you limited the training program to the > linux. > > So whilst I find the idea of offering training to Dell's linux > customers gregarious and even charitable, I think it is a venture > doomed to failure, and surely one which most investors would be > loathe to back with the resources required. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 05/28/07 > > > on building a decent computer for under $500: > > No need for Piracy or IP Theft here ! > It is saddening to see articles like this that talk about building > computing systems, and leave out the necessary costs involved with > properly licensing the operating software. There is an unwritten > suggestion within the article that the user could somehow bypass these > costs ? or worse - choose a system (Ubuntu), which will lead the user > into the dark and uncharted world of freeware - a world where the true > costs are frighteningly hidden in the details. > > I would suggest that in building any computing aparatus, one first > selects the software required, and then builds the rest of system > around that. > > At the center of this choice would be the Windows Vista of course - > preferably in the Business edition, at a low price of $299. > > That leaves $200 left, and for that money one could purchase a quality > case for about $50, a Microsoft keyboard and Mouse combo .. another > $50, and a Motherboard for $100. > > Now - anyone with experience in the computing IT industry would know > that prices for CPU's, RAM memory, and Hard Disk memory always drop > significantly over time. > > A top of the line processor, RAM memory and Hard Disk memory may cost > $1000 at today's prices - however, in a short time frame, these will > cost only $200. And so, the wise buyer, by strategically delaying > their purchase order, will save $800. > > A good quality 19" monitor - another $200. > > Microsoft Office - add $400 > > Now lets do the figures : > $499 for the purchase of the initial equipment. > + $200 for the upgrades later on. > - $800 savings by delaying the CPU / RAM / Disk purchase > + $200 for a monitor > + $400 for Microsoft Officce > = > $499 total > > There you have it - a perfectly 'decent' computing machine with a > legal and licenced copy of operating software (and $1 in change) vs > $500 for a somewhat hobbled Ubuntu machine that leaves its user with > undeclared balance sheet liablity for patent infringements. > > Like so many other independent studies have found before .. A properly > licensed Microsoft solution is not only the safer option, but also the > lower cost option as well. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 05/30/07 > > > on his lack of mathematical ability: > > Yes ME again > I see that the freeware evangelists are running scared now that their > days are numbered. In an unbiased comparison, I have independently > concluded that a legally licensed Windows machine, with a faster CPU > processor and RAM memory, a bigger screen and a bigger Hard Disk > memory is cheaper than the ubuntu machine, because of a sound > investment strategy based on felicitous risk management and foresight. > > You said : "You better go back to school because your math is > definitely not sound. You failed to factor in your $299 (your quote) > for Vista" > > Not so - lets add it up again. > $299 for the Vista > $50 for the case > $50 for the genuine Microsoft keyboard and mouse > $100 for the motherboard > Total = $499 > > What is there not to understand ? The deductivistic summation of such > figures adds up to $499. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 05/30/07 > > > on Google's announcment that a lot of IIS servers are serving malware: > > Interesting > Its a very interesting statistic indeed, and one that bears repeating > in many an IT department. > > Google is a company with extensive internet experience - probably > second only to Microsoft itself, and one can bet that Google looks at > all platform options very closely. > > I wonder what exactly can be concluded from this statistic though ? > Given that Google runs it's internets using Microsoft IIS at the very > core, they dont sound too worried about this situation. > > Read between the lines of the article though, and the truth is > revealed in the final paragraph - That these compromised servers are > running PIRATED versions of Microsoft IIS, many of which are probably > also running Linux, another malware of dubious legality. > > It would be informative to learn how many of these pirated domains are > running Microsoft IIS under Vista vs how many are running Microsoft > IIS under linux ? As always, the truth is in the details. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 06/06/07 > > > on MS using FUD to force FOSS groups to partner with them: > > Does the linux have a choice ? > If one makes the presumption that the modern IT is all about the > internets, then you have to ask yourself 'Does the Linux even have a > choice in this matter ?' > > A modern computing system is not one that is run from the DOS command > line - it is a system that is tied in with the internet instead. Just > have a look at Vista with Aero for an example of this done right. > > You need the outlook to connect in with the mass of email flowing > around us every day. And then there is document collaboration - the > sharing of Wordfiles and Excels between users across state boundries > ! Voice over IP, internet enabled 'surface' computing, and voice > command interfaces - all tied together with .NET and the Aero > interface. > > The driving force behind this internet is the Microsoft Sharepoint > Server - a central peice of systems software which connects all these > end points together, in a synergistic kaleidoscope that achieves both > balance and symmetry. > > The smart Vendors know that in order to get ahead in the future IT, > that means integrating with the internet. > > And so, we will see more and vendors of the Linux remit their legal > obligations to Microsoft, and then benefit by getting onboard the .NET > revolution. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 06/06/07 > > > on random rewrites as a secure method of wiping hard drives: > > Secure erase not so secure > When writing finite bits to the disk sector, there is a finite > probability that the resultant string of randomised bits MAY in fact > generate something incriminating. > > For example: (regardless of how unlikely this may seem), any string of > random characters may well create a brand new wordfile on the computer > by pure chance .. which contains legible words, which string together > to form sentences which may in turn connect the previous owner of the > hard disk with Al-Qaida, the Mafia, insider trading, un-patriotic > activites, Linux 'development', or any manner of unsavory activities. > > The larger the hard disk being randomly 'wiped' in this fashion, the > greater the probability that some new and undesirable content would be > created by chance. > > I for one would NOT place my trust in such a tool, risking a lifetime > of torment in Guantanimo Bay in exchange for the 'security' of having > my hard disk cleaned prior to resale. > > The solution ? One should purchase a new copy of the Vista for the > said hard disk, and install this on the disk. This would effectively > wipe clean the disk of any previous content. The disk could then be > disposed of cleanly, with a note that the new owner must purchase > another legal copy of the Vista before installing the disk. > > In this situation - everyone wins. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 06/17/07 > > > on MS partnering with Linux vendors: > > Why is Microsoft doing this ? > The one crucial question that must be framed is : Why is Microsoft > paying hard currency for these deals ? > > Why would they do that unless there was some other agenda ? I think > the answer is clear. > > Figures from the BSA and RIAA prove beyond all doubt that piracy and > intellectual property theft is growing at an alarming rate. A recent > article published by the US internet crime complaint center > demonstrates how receipt of its 1 Millionth complaint shows that > internet based fraud is both rampant and expanding beyond all reason. > > In this environment of lawless anarchy, it is no surprise to find that > the Linux is right at home, and growing - in the same way that a wurm > grows fat and gluttonous when placed in a dark and damp environment > full of refuse and the despondent cast off's of a wealthy society. > > I am not alone in my beliefs that even in this dreadful situation, the > Linux represents a growing market for the softwares. Microsoft has > tried for years to offer their superior office suites and internet > products to markets outside of the Vista, with little success. > > And yet, this is a difficult exersize. Linux represents the old > school, with its mainframe like interface, and arcane secret > programming languages. Porting the softwares to this platform > involves hiring the hippies who understand this obtuse environment. > These people are typically unreliable, and have difficulty living wth > the regular 9-5 work ethic. They believe in intellectual property > theft, free love, substance abuse, and marxism. > > Microsoft has solved these issues in one brilliant sweep by paying > cash for access to these Linux secrets, by making these cross patent > deals with the linux 'Vendors'. This will allow for the > interoperability that the corporations so dearly wish for - the > ability to run the Microsoft Office, and the IE7, as well as the > Vista on top of this growing but amorphous mass known as 'The Linux'. > > In a short time we will all soon see the benefits of these cross > licencing deals, and the softwares will expand out their user bases > and be seen everywhere. Even the most die hard linux afficionado with > matted hair and a red armband will salivate at the prospect of being > able to run the IE7 on his precious linux. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 06/18/07 > > > on some $150 laptop project possibly being a scam: > > MK Electronics > I have spoken to MK Electronics - a real and established electronics > firm in Sweden - and also the Medison 'partner' who is handling > distribution for this laptop, and according to them, its all real. > > This is just bizarre. > > Im sure if it was possible to sell a $150 laptop in quantity, then > Microsoft would already be offering such a product. > Posted by: jerryleecooper Posted on: 08/08/07 > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- Craig White --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss