If $10/hour is the new reality then I'll change careers. I could do better delivering pizza for Domino's. So the only programmers they will get are the ones that could not qualify as a pizza delivery guy. That ought to work out well for them. On Friday 23 August 2002 18:52, JD Austin wrote: > > But, as you've stated, paying what the market will bear is what they are > > doing. We're just not all willing to agree that it might be the new > > reality. > > I second what Brent said... > > All I can say is that they'll get what they pay for. > That isn't enough for a professional to be a professional about it, it's > an insult. It is NOT a new reality. Don't think anyone they hire at $10 > an hour will stay around to support it when market conditions get better. > Sure they'll build it for $400 now.. later they'll pay $100 an hour to > support it :) > > Hire them at $10 an hour and you'll get $10 an hour worth of their effort, > and $0 worth of responsibility for what they produce. They may build your > application and it will work very well, but $10 isn't enough for them to > take the additional effort to ensure that the application will scale > beyond your current needs. They will not perform adequate planning and > design, or document it well enough so that you can bring in more down and > out programmers to ruin your company. > > You won't get the data model (ER Diagram, entity descriptions, constraint > descriptions, table instance charts,etc), UML class diagrams, flow charts, > program flow diagrams,etc. You'll get whatever they can throw together > with the least amount of effort, because at that rate they will put far > more effort into searching for another job than building your $400 > application. > > You can have it: > FAST.. > CHEAP.. > RIGHT.. > PICK TWO. > > > I'd also say that there isn't necessarily a correlation between salary > > and ability. I'm sure we've all worked with folks getting paid a whole > > lot more money than we were that could only talk the talk, or were only > > experts in their last environment. You know the type - in charge of 50 > > servers in their last job, had no idea what went on outside of the > > server room. > > Shhh... he's reading your email right this minute.. (grin) > > Probably the same way you had no idea clue went on inside the server room > :) Sure they were experts on their last environment.. and will be experts > on the current environment soon enough. It wasn't his job to get involved > with aspects outside of the server room. > > With responsibility comes they pay that goes with it. Screw up 50 servers > and the whole company is down, keep it all running perfectly and nobody > understands why they need you :) (When I did wrong I heard it ever, when > I did right I heard it NEVER) This is the guy that maintains the > infrastructure to enable you to do your job, you'll only notice when he > screws it up. > > Not to say there aren't some 'paper MCSE' people out there :) Clueless > people don't last long.. they're soon promoted to management where they > can do the least amount of damage. > > > Ray Zorz > > Business Development Manager > > NetShore Programming Corp. > > 623-551-9422 > > mailto:rzorz@netshoreprogramming.com > > www.netshoreprogramming.com > > "High Value Programming" > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brent.Erbe@metriscompanies.com > > [mailto:Brent.Erbe@metriscompanies.com] > > Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 9:41 AM > > To: azipa@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re:RE: [azipa] Re: Contract Position Available > > > > > > > > ECON 101 + BUS 101 > > > > It really comes down to how critical the project is and how one values > > proper > > development and successful implementation. If my softball league needed > > a > > website, I wouldn't care if I found someone to do it for free (And, in > > fact, we > > have). However, if my business needed a site that accepted credit cards > > and > > logged those transactions in a database, I would request quotes - then > > take one > > on the low end. > > > > In my experience, searching for contractors (in any business) that are > > willing > > to take far below market value just isn't worth it. More often than > > not, this > > practice results in low quality product/service, low level talent/skill, > > bad > > morale, and/or high turnover. Pay what the market will bear. No More - > > No > > Less. > > > > The old adage is true: You get what you pay for. > > > > Brent Erbe > > Metr1s Companies > > brent.erbe@metriscompanies.com > > > > > > ____________________Reply Separator____________________ > > Subject: RE: [azipa] Re: Contract Position Available > > Author: "Sean M. Hays" > > Date: 8/23/02 12:43 AM > > > > > > > > > > ECON 101 > > > > SUPPLY vs DEMAND > > > > If someone wants to offer a job for $5 an hour and someone else would be > > happy to work for that amount, then we have two happy people. > > > > If someone wants to get paid $150 an hour and someone else is willing to > > pay > > that amount, again, we have two happy people. > > > > Pretty simple. > > > > Just throwing in my 3 cents => inflation. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: k_e_moeller [mailto:mkarl2@uswest.net] > > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 2:04 PM > > To: azipa@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [azipa] Re: Contract Position Available > > > > --- In azipa@y..., "Sylvia Dahlby" wrote: > >>...For the under-employed and unemployed, it's not a good idea > >> to turn one's nose down at an opportunity to keep working, sharpen > > > > your skills, and add to your resume even if it means a temporary pay > > cut. > > > >> Sylvia Dahlby > >> > >> SmartSearch Online > >> Staffing management software from APS, Inc. > >> > >> http://www.smartsearchonline.com > > > > Well, Sylvia, I sure wouldn't want YOU searching for my next > > position. Your motives and sympathies are purely on the beleaguered > > employer's side, enthusiastically recommending that professionals > > knuckle under to low offers and resign themselves to earning a barely- > > living wage. > > > > I hope that professionals reading this remember the economic > > advantage that employers and their hiring lackeys are attempting to > > impose on the backs of the people actually performing the work. > > > > I wonder, Sylvia, how long you and YOUR household could stay afloat at > > $10.00 per hour? > > > > Karl Moeller Tucson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==AZIPA================================================================== > > Helping Build the Tech Oasis - http://www.techoasis.org > > AZIPA (Arizona Internet Professionals Association) Discussion List > > Subscribe: mailto:azipa-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribe: mailto:azipa-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Please see http://www.azipa.org/mail.html for list info and guidelines > > Report list related problems/concerns at mailto:listcomment@azipa.org > > Thank you to our Sponsors/Supporters! http://www.acteva.com/go/azipa > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > * Domain name transfers starting at $7.75 to as low as $7.45. 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