This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C099BB.05728820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you outlaw Linux then only outlaws will have Linux=20 Keith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Vaughn Treude=20 To: plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20 Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 8:28 PM Subject: Re: Interesting MS Comments I think you've hit the nail on the head about one of the most likely = ways for MS and others to attack open source. They can't prohibit it = outright, just like they can't directly prohibit free speech or guns in = our great country. But Linux could conceivably be used as a tool to = violate the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (or whatever that outrage is = called) and they could try to outlaw open-source code for drivers for = these kinds of devices.=20 Besides that, a lot of Linux people have also been involved in the = smuggling of encryption, oops I mean "munitions", over national borders. = So they'll have to find some way to prevent PGP from running in = Windows, probably refusing to issue some sort of "approval certificate" = that will be required for Windows apps in the future. The government = could require Linux distros to incorporate a similar scheme, just like = automakers are required to put in airbags whether the customers want = them or not.=20 Those are just two examples of "threats" that could justify government = intervention in open source code. Restrict the right to use open source = in too many areas, and Linux will end up as a swiss cheese system = riddled with buggy and unmodifiable proprietary code. They've been = pursuing a similar tactic with private gun ownership-- create SO many = regulations, prohibitions and conditions for ownership and use of a = weapon, that even if you're not an ex-felon, you can't legally use it to = protect yourself in 99% of the situations where you'd really need it. = (And these days, most felonies are not even violent crimes.) But I = digress. You may not agree with my pro-gun enthusiasm, but I think the = metaphor is a good one. We shouldn't be paranoid-- but we must be = eternally vigilant.=20 Vaughn Treude=20 =20 Todd Hought wrote:=20 Here's the scary part, every one of US sees that this is just a = bunch of=20 malarkey, but Joe Consumer doesn't. Regular people are easily = influenced by=20 what they read and see, and most people out there would see = something like=20 this and think "Those Open Source people really ARE undermining = those nice=20 people who built my Windows...." All it would take, is one powerful, = idiot=20 congressperson, to put a bug like this into the system, and it just = COULD be=20 illegal to write free software, let's face it, we're not being shown = in a=20 good light after that MPAA fiasco, and it isn't even over yet.=20 Somebody on /. posted a good comment about an open letter to every = single=20 representative, written by every one of us (read: the open source = community),=20 included with say, a full copy of the Debian Distro (all 10+ CD's) = and a copy=20 of every other distro, even the teeny tiny ones, just so that people = in power=20 would get a clearer picture of what innovation people like us have = created=20 for the world they live in. I'm all for it, let's get 'em!=20 -Todd=20 On Friday 16 February 2001 11:24, you wrote:=20 > My thoughts exactly, Trent.=20 >=20 > Also, who else has more money, power, and influence to mount a = legal=20 > attack against GPL/LGPL/ect. If they can poke holes in the legal=20 > protections guaranteed by the Open Source licenses, the end is = near.=20 >=20 > On Friday 16 February 2001 11:13, you wrote:=20 > > Hardly clueless, but obviously scared.=20 > >=20 > > MS is signaling the start of a *major* disinformation campaign. = OS=20 > > market share is obviously partly in play, but arguing open = source is=20 > > anti-competitive would indicate Microsoft is making a strategic = move.=20 > >=20 > > Maybe they want to eliminate GNU or Java style licenses. Also, = much=20 > > open source software seems to be developed by quasi-cartels. An = IBM -=20 > > SUN cartel disguised as an open source collaboration should = frighten=20 > > Microsoft.=20 > >=20 > > > -----Original Message-----=20 > > > From: plug-discuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20 > > > [mailto:plug-discuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us]On Behalf = Of=20 > > > Deepak Saxena=20 > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:21 AM=20 > > > To: plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20 > > > Subject: Re: Interesting MS Comments=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > It shows how clueless and scared Microsoft is about open = source at the=20 > > > moment.=20 > > >=20 > > > ~Deepak=20 > > >=20 > > > On Feb 16 2001, at 09:12, Lucas Vogel was caught saying:=20 > > > > Not only was this posted on Slashdot yesterday, but it had = over=20 > > >=20 > > > 1300 or so=20 > > >=20 > > > > comments posted to it.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > It's a good insight to the views some of the MS executives = have on=20 > > > > open source, but I really don't think it has any teeth - = even if MS=20 > > > > does.=20 > > > >=20 > > > > IMHO,=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Lucas=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=20 > > > > Lucas Vogel=20 > > > > Exponent, Inc.=20 > > > > lvogel@exponent.com=20 > > > > 623-587-6739 work=20 > > > > 623-587-4191 fax=20 > > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=20 > > > > http://www.exponent.com=20 > > > >=20 > > > > > -----Original Message-----=20 > > > > > From: Jeffrey Pyne [mailto:jpyne@worldatwork.org]=20 > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:03 AM=20 > > > > > To: plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20 > > > > > Subject: Interesting MS Comments=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > I saw a link to this article on another list and found it = amusing:=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > = http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=3Dmarketsquote99_news.ht&=20 > > > > > s=3DAOospdBaQTWl=20 > > > > > jcm9z=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > (If it hasn't already been posted to Slashdot, I'm sure it = will=20 > > > > > soon.)=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > A couple excerpts:=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > "Microsoft Corp.'s Windows operating-system chief, Jim=20 > > > > > Allchin, says that=20 > > > > > freely distributed software code such as rival Linux could = > > > > > stifle innovation=20 > > > > > and that legislators need to understand the threat."=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > -and-=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > "I'm an American, I believe in the American Way," he said. = "I=20 > > > > > worry if the=20 > > > > > government encourages open source, and I don't think we've = done=20 > > > > > enough education of policy makers to understand the = threat."=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > Well heck afire! I didn't realize that Linux was = UNAMERICAN. I=20 > > > > > am unsubscribing from this list immediately, and when I = get home I=20 > > > > > am going to=20 > > > > > blow away my Slackware 7.1 installation (evil, evil!) and=20 > > > > > install Windows=20 > > > > > 2000. (To do so I'll just need to stop by Fry's on the = way=20 > > > > > home to pick up=20 > > > > > and extra 256Mb of RAM-- good thing it's on sale for = $44.95.)=20 > > > > > I'm just glad=20 > > > > > Mr. Allchin warned us all before it was too late....=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > :)=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > ~Jeff=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > ________________________________________________=20 > > > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your = > > > > > mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape = to=20 > > > > > write mail.=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > Plug-discuss mailing list -=20 > > > > > Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20 > > > > > = http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20 > > > >=20 > > > > ________________________________________________=20 > > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your = mail=20 > > >=20 > > > doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write = mail.=20 > > >=20 > > > > Plug-discuss mailing list - = Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20 > > > > = http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20 > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > Deepak Saxena - deepak@csociety.purdue.edu - = phone://602.790.0500=20 > > >=20 > > > call me 'evil' call me 'tide is on your side' anything that = you want=20 > > > anybody knows you can conjure anything by the dark of the moon = > > > - Tori Amos, "Suede"=20 > > >=20 > > > ________________________________________________=20 > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your = mail=20 > > > doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write = mail.=20 > > >=20 > > > Plug-discuss mailing list - = Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20 > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20 > >=20 > > ________________________________________________=20 > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail = doesn't=20 > > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.=20 > >=20 > > Plug-discuss mailing list - = Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20 > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20 ________________________________________________=20 See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail = doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.=20 Plug-discuss mailing list - Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20 http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --=20 ***************** Nakota Software, Inc. Custom Industrial Software Development =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C099BB.05728820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you outlaw Linux then only outlaws = will have=20 Linux
 
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Vaughn Treude
To: plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.pho= enix.az.us=20
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 = 8:28=20 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting MS=20 Comments

I think you've hit the nail on the head about one of = the most=20 likely ways for MS and others to attack open source.  They = can't=20 prohibit it outright, just like they can't directly prohibit free = speech or=20 guns in our great country.  But Linux could conceivably be used = as a tool=20 to violate the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (or whatever that = outrage is=20 called) and they could try to outlaw open-source code for drivers for = these=20 kinds of devices.=20

Besides that, a lot of Linux people have also been involved in the=20 smuggling of encryption, oops I mean "munitions", over national = borders. =20 So they'll have to find some way to prevent PGP from running in = Windows,=20 probably refusing to issue some sort of "approval certificate" that = will be=20 required for Windows apps in the future.  The government could = require=20 Linux distros to incorporate a similar scheme, just like automakers = are=20 required to put in airbags whether the customers want them or not.=20

Those are just two examples of "threats" that could justify = government=20 intervention in open source code.  Restrict the right to use open = source=20 in too many areas, and Linux will end up as a swiss cheese system = riddled with=20 buggy and unmodifiable proprietary code.  They've been pursuing a = similar=20 tactic with private gun ownership-- create SO many regulations,=20 prohibitions and conditions for ownership and use of a weapon, that = even if=20 you're not an ex-felon, you can't legally use it to protect yourself = in 99% of=20 the situations where you'd really need it.  (And these days, most = felonies are not even violent crimes.)  But I digress.  You = may not=20 agree with my pro-gun enthusiasm, but I think the metaphor is a = good=20 one.   We shouldn't be paranoid-- but we must be eternally = vigilant.=20

Vaughn Treude
 =20

Todd Hought wrote:=20

Here's the scary part, every one of US sees = that=20 this is just a bunch of
malarkey, but Joe Consumer doesn't. = Regular=20 people are easily influenced by
what they read and see, and most = people=20 out there would see something like
this and think "Those Open = Source=20 people really ARE undermining those nice
people who built my=20 Windows...." All it would take, is one powerful, idiot =
congressperson,=20 to put a bug like this into the system, and it just COULD be =
illegal to=20 write free software, let's face it, we're not being shown in a =
good=20 light after that MPAA fiasco, and it isn't even over yet.=20

Somebody on /. posted a good comment about an open letter to = every single=20
representative, written by every one of us (read: the open = source=20 community),
included with say, a full copy of the Debian Distro = (all 10+=20 CD's) and a copy
of every other distro, even the teeny tiny = ones, just=20 so that people in power
would get a clearer picture of what = innovation=20 people like us have created
for the world they live in. I'm all = for it,=20 let's get 'em!=20

-Todd=20

On Friday 16 February 2001 11:24, you wrote:
> My thoughts = exactly, Trent.
>
> Also, who else has more money, = power, and=20 influence to mount a legal
> attack against = GPL/LGPL/ect.  If=20 they can poke holes in the legal
> protections guaranteed by = the Open=20 Source licenses, the end is near.
>
> On Friday 16 = February=20 2001 11:13, you wrote:
> > Hardly clueless, but obviously = scared.=20
> >
> > MS is signaling the start of a *major*=20 disinformation campaign.  OS
> > market share is = obviously=20 partly in play, but arguing open source is
> > = anti-competitive=20 would indicate Microsoft is making a strategic move.
> > =
>=20 > Maybe they want to eliminate GNU or Java style licenses.  = Also,=20 much
> > open source software seems to be developed by=20 quasi-cartels.  An IBM -
> > SUN cartel disguised as = an open=20 source collaboration should frighten
> > Microsoft. =
> >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > = From:=20 plug-discuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> > > [mailto:plug-d= iscuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us]On=20 Behalf Of
> > > Deepak Saxena
> > > Sent: = Friday,=20 February 16, 2001 10:21 AM
> > > To:=20 plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> > > Subject: = Re:=20 Interesting MS Comments
> > >
> > > =
> >=20 >
> > > It shows how clueless and scared Microsoft = is about=20 open source at the
> > > moment.
> > > =
>=20 > > ~Deepak
> > >
> > > On Feb 16 = 2001, at=20 09:12, Lucas Vogel was caught saying:
> > > > Not = only was=20 this posted on Slashdot yesterday, but it had over
> > = >=20
> > > 1300 or so
> > >
> > > = >=20 comments posted to it.
> > > >
> > > = > It's=20 a good insight to the views some of the MS executives have on =
> >=20 > > open source, but I really don't think it has any teeth - = even if=20 MS
> > > > does.
> > > >
> = > >=20 > IMHO,
> > > >
> > > > Lucas =
>=20 > > >
> > > >
> > > >=20 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
> > > > Lucas Vogel
>=20 > > > Exponent, Inc.
> > > > = lvogel@exponent.com=20
> > > > 623-587-6739    work
> = >=20 > > 623-587-4191    fax
> > > > = = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
> > > > http://www.exponent.com =
> >=20 > >
> > > > > -----Original Message----- =
>=20 > > > > From: Jeffrey Pyne [mailto:jpyne@worldatwork.org]=20
> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:03 = AM=20
> > > > > To: = plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20
> > > > > Subject: Interesting MS Comments =
> >=20 > > >
> > > > >
> > > > = > I=20 saw a link to this article on another list and found it amusing: =
>=20 > > > >
> > > > > http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=3Dmarketsquote99_news.ht&= =20
> > > > > s=3DAOospdBaQTWl
> > > = > >=20 jcm9z
> > > > >
> > > > > (If = it=20 hasn't already been posted to Slashdot, I'm sure it will
> = > >=20 > > soon.)
> > > > >
> > > = > > A=20 couple excerpts:
> > > > >
> > > = > >=20 "Microsoft Corp.'s Windows operating-system chief, Jim
> > = >=20 > > Allchin, says that
> > > > > freely = distributed=20 software code such as rival Linux could
> > > > > = stifle=20 innovation
> > > > > and that legislators need to = understand the threat."
> > > > >
> > = > >=20 >   -and-
> > > > >
> > = > >=20 > "I'm an American, I believe in the American Way," he said. "I =
>=20 > > > > worry if the
> > > > > = government=20 encourages open source, and I don't think we've done
> > = > >=20 > enough education of policy makers to understand the threat." =
>=20 > > > >
> > > > > Well heck = afire!  I=20 didn't realize that Linux was UNAMERICAN.  I
> > > = >=20 > am unsubscribing from this list immediately, and when I get = home I=20
> > > > > am going to
> > > > = > blow=20 away my Slackware 7.1 installation (evil, evil!) and
> > = > >=20 > install Windows
> > > > > 2000.  (To do = so I'll=20 just need to stop by Fry's on the way
> > > > > = home to=20 pick up
> > > > > and extra 256Mb of RAM-- good = thing=20 it's on sale for $44.95.)
> > > > >  I'm = just glad=20
> > > > > Mr. Allchin warned us all before it was = too=20 late....
> > > > >
> > > > > = :)=20
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Jeff =
>=20 > > > >
> > > > >=20 ________________________________________________
> > > = >=20 > See http://PLUG.phoen= ix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml=20 if your
> > > > > mail doesn't post to the list = quickly=20 and you use Netscape to
> > > > > write mail. =
>=20 > > > >
> > > > > Plug-discuss = mailing=20 list  -
> > > > >=20 Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> > > > > = ht= tp://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20
> > > >
> > > >=20 ________________________________________________
> > > = > See=20 http://PLUG.phoen= ix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml=20 if your mail
> > >
> > > doesn't post to = the list=20 quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> > > =
> >=20 > > Plug-discuss mailing list  - =20 Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> > > > ht= tp://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20
> > >
> > > --
> > > Deepak = Saxena -=20 deepak@csociety.purdue.edu - phone://602.790.0500
> > > =
> > > call me 'evil' call me 'tide is on your side' = anything=20 that you want
> > > anybody knows you can conjure = anything by=20 the dark of the moon
> > >   - Tori Amos, = "Suede"=20
> > >
> > >=20 ________________________________________________
> > > = See http://PLUG.phoen= ix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml=20 if your mail
> > > doesn't post to the list quickly and = you use=20 Netscape to write mail.
> > >
> > > = Plug-discuss=20 mailing list  -  Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us =
>=20 > > ht= tp://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20
> >
> > = ________________________________________________=20
> > See http://PLUG.phoen= ix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml=20 if your mail doesn't
> > post to the list quickly and you = use=20 Netscape to write mail.
> >
> > Plug-discuss = mailing=20 list  -  Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> = > ht= tp://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20

________________________________________________
See http://PLUG.phoen= ix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml=20 if your mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape = to write=20 mail.=20

Plug-discuss mailing list  - =20 Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
ht= tp://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss

-- 
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Nakota Software, Inc.
Custom Industrial Software Development
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