<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Good luck, and take care. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit</span><br style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span><a href="https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 5:39 AM William Hooper via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">unsubscribe please<br>
retiring<br>
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from my iPhone 9<br>
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On Jan 19, 2025, at 12:39, <a href="mailto:plug-discuss-request@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss-request@lists.phxlinux.org</a> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: WordPress Move to JavaScript (James Dugger)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 02:15:37 -0700<br>
From: James Dugger <<a href="mailto:james.dugger@gmail.com" target="_blank">james.dugger@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Main PLUG discussion list <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: WordPress Move to JavaScript<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAOXWiHi_QgwMHkfDCgNb0rhsRnAHaQ9%2BtvN%2BDuRBfMKzgcU2yw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAOXWiHi_QgwMHkfDCgNb0rhsRnAHaQ9+tvN+DuRBfMKzgcU2yw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
I know this is old but thought I would add some perspective. WordPress'<br>
plugin ecosystem is too big. Its primary audience is what I call site<br>
builders - individuals with some coding experience mainly in html, and CSS<br>
and maybe a bit of javascript's jquery library. Although that latter is<br>
probably pushing it. I went to WordCamp 8 years ago in Phoenix as a GoDaddy<br>
rep. Most of the people and even the talks were geared towards non-coding<br>
professionals. Most people there wouldn't have been able to explain what<br>
an object was in any language and couldn't blueprint a class declaration or<br>
any of its mechanics.<br>
<br>
Where do they go - If they don't want to pay for real development they head<br>
to Squarespace or Weebly or other no-code solutions.<br>
<br>
Most of the use cases for WordPress I am familiar with are for small<br>
businesses. Most hosting companies have auto site builders that construct<br>
the website in 30 seconds. But then people quickly get bogged down in even<br>
finding, picking, installing and implementing the plugins correctly after<br>
the initial build. Often they are left with hacked, or bloated sites that<br>
leave them exposed and filled with malware. I helped an agency clean up a<br>
WordPress website for a plastic surgeon where the MySQL database had been<br>
injected with Russian phishing data. The site was 5 years old and I found<br>
over 150k nefarious entries that had to be cleaned up and removed.<br>
<br>
Later I worked for a tech firm that consults for large corporate clients<br>
that use WordPress for limited sites, like a digital magazine for high end<br>
real estate holdings, almost like a brochure version of Architectural<br>
Digest. In these cases WP works because we would limit the number of<br>
plugins and user interaction with the site. We could have easily built<br>
these sites without WP and often did, but if they were going to maintain<br>
the site the contracts would dictate that we had to build it in WP.<br>
<br>
I think that the current metrics are around 43% of the web uses WordPress.<br>
I would estimate that easily 70% of the database and the codebase in WP is<br>
for managing the application and has little to do with the actual visual<br>
website that the general public see and interact with - excluding ecommerce<br>
and subscription-based web apps that need user account transactions. A<br>
typical WP site is over 1 million lines of code.<br>
<br>
But when the same companies hired us to build enterprise-based solutions<br>
and wanted a PHP-based web application the choices were usually Drupal for<br>
sites that needed a CMS and Laravel for sites that didn't. Even if they<br>
wanted a SPA (single page application) like React, Angular, or Vue, we<br>
recommended the backend be built in Laravel and not Express (Node). Drupal<br>
is based on the Symfony PHP framework and Laravel hooks into it. Symfony is<br>
by far the most well supported open source PHP solution. The irony is that<br>
there are enough good libraries both on the JavaScript and PHP that are<br>
better written, more secure, and just as easy to implement than going to a<br>
WP-based approach. Plus I have to wonder what is going on with Automatic<br>
and WP Engine and what is the future of WordPress.<br>
<br>
For sites that need to be sped up and are limited to remain on older server<br>
instances. My advice is to simplify the code base as much as possible. So<br>
roll your own framework or use a lightweight MVC framework. Turn on opcode<br>
(APC) and object caching (Redis) and if you are using Apache as your<br>
Webserver play with the MaxClient settings to dial in the amount of<br>
preforking that Apache does. Setting the number too high in MySQL will<br>
cause thrashing when the database constantly has to write data out to the<br>
disk to clear up memory to add threads. Or switch to Nginx as the<br>
webserver.<br>
<br>
Package These up in a Docker container or containers (web server, database<br>
server) running a lightweight Linux instance and you have a portable web<br>
application that can be installed anywhere and spun up in seconds.<br>
<br>
On Fri, Nov 15, 2024 at 12:17?PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss <<br>
<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Thank You David,<br>
> <br>
> I agree WordPress is bloated and it is one-size-fits-all. I saw a video<br>
> recently that WordPress has 40% market share.<br>
> <br>
> I am hoping to build my own infrastructure within a year and a half.<br>
> <br>
> I think potentially the back end JS issue is my problem. That is why I<br>
> mentioned my daily driver is a 10 year old Dell with an i5 and 16G of<br>
> RAM. It is running an SSD that helps. Seems 32G is the minimum<br>
> now....Yikes<br>
> <br>
> Another issue is Google has removed 12 of my articles because of<br>
> redirects. I've looked at it several times and cannot figure it out. I<br>
> did not add the redirects. I wonder if it is WordPress that is doing<br>
> something.<br>
> <br>
> Other than a more powerful CPU and more RAM what is the solution? Is<br>
> there a point when people start to exit WordPress, and where do they go?<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On 2024-11-13 12:47, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote:<br>
>> Javascript runs in the browser. Most issues I hear about and encounter<br>
>> myself end up being browser-related.<br>
>> <br>
>> You mentined all of the things that aren?t connected to JS, and did not<br>
>> mention the one(s) that are. JS is the primary source of problems<br>
>> today. And hackers that break into the back-end.<br>
>> <br>
>> I operate almost exclusively on Macs and my Android phone, and I?ve got<br>
>> between three and six browsers on each one. None of them work the same<br>
>> ? which is to say, when I run into a problem on one, I can usually<br>
>> solve it by switching to another browser. Every week it?s something<br>
>> different.<br>
>> <br>
>> The source of the problem is not worth my time to figure it out, and<br>
>> it?s really easy to switch to another browser.<br>
>> <br>
>> Don?t blame php or the back-end for quirks that are endemic to JS<br>
>> running in one specific browser. Even updates of the same browser can<br>
>> behave differently. And the behavior on the same browser can change<br>
>> from one day to the next, or one hour to the next. Nobody is changing<br>
>> the back-end that frequently, I can assure you. It?s the libraries the<br>
>> pages are loading up, or the code the site?s developers changed last<br>
>> night.<br>
>> <br>
>> I?ve been writing code in Delphi using TMS WEB Core, which is available<br>
>> both as a Delphi addon and a standalone package that runs in Visual<br>
>> Studio Code. It takes Delphi code (Object Pascal) and translates it<br>
>> into JS and packages it up so it runs in the browser. NONE of it is<br>
>> running in the back-end! It?s 100% browser based. And 100% of the weird<br>
>> issues I have are all browser related. Sure, there are bugs in the<br>
>> platform, but they are typically reproduced the same in every browser.<br>
>> Browser issues show up differently in one browser, maybe two, but not<br>
>> in all of them.<br>
>> <br>
>> A lot of browsers are using the Chromium engine, so quirks in it can be<br>
>> reflected elsewhere, but they usually need to be running the same<br>
>> version of the engine for them to show up.<br>
>> <br>
>> It used to be that you had to test software on different machines from<br>
>> different vendors, different versions of Windows or MacOS, and it cost<br>
>> you a lot of money to have all of those combinations of software and<br>
>> hardware available for testing.<br>
>> <br>
>> Today you just need to test on one hardware platform with variations of<br>
>> browsers loaded on it, probably running in separate VMs or docker<br>
>> images to ensure you test with different versions of Chromium and<br>
>> whatnot.<br>
>> <br>
>> Same old sh*t, different approach.<br>
>> <br>
>> As far as WP goes, I think it?s internal architecture has become<br>
>> obsolete. Layers and layers of crap have been added to convert<br>
>> asynchronous events into something that serializes them, and the people<br>
>> writing plugins and themes are mostly inexperienced coders who don?t<br>
>> have a clue what?s what. Meanwhile there are people who have nothing<br>
>> else to do with their life but find ways to sneak into cracks and<br>
>> crevices in the back-end, and sometimes wide-open doors, left by said<br>
>> inexperienced coders who didn?t do a good job testing their code. ?It<br>
>> works! Ship it!?<br>
>> <br>
>> The UX/UI logic is all being pushed out to the browser, and the<br>
>> business logic is being hidden behind REST APIs. I can build something<br>
>> in TMS WEB Core way faster than it takes to build in WP ? it runs<br>
>> faster, is more solid, and is far easier to maintain. That can probably<br>
>> be said of most JS-based UX/UI dev tools today.<br>
>> <br>
>> The problem with Wordpress is ? it?s Wordpress. The UX/UI is tightly<br>
>> coupled to the back-end because all of the user?s state is managed in<br>
>> the back-end. And it?s not an API, but just a huge mess of functions<br>
>> that are designed to be hijacked by programmers to get it to do pretty<br>
>> much anything out of the ordinary ? if you can?t get it to support<br>
>> something in the UI, you need to build a plugin or theme to add it. And<br>
>> that code lives on the BACK-END and is susceptible to all of the myriad<br>
>> ways there are for hackers to throw sand in the gears. The whole damn<br>
>> platform is open to anybody who wants to poke and prod it?s guts! They<br>
>> even added an API but nobody uses it.<br>
>> <br>
>> If I need something to work a certain way using WEB Core, I can easily<br>
>> program it. I hide necessary business logic behind an authenticated<br>
>> REST API and the JS in the browser manages it all. The events are all<br>
>> asynchronous and I don?t have to worry about someone hacking into the<br>
>> back-end code and hijacking everything. I can build the services in any<br>
>> language and host it on any platform I want.<br>
>> <br>
>> In WP, you have to build a plugin and plan to maintain it as further WP<br>
>> updates will very likely break it in some unexpected way. Or if not the<br>
>> WP code than maybe one of the UI libs you?re working with change and<br>
>> someone updated a theme that loads a different version and screws up<br>
>> your code.<br>
>> <br>
>> IMHO, WP is just a big fat ugly mess that only gets worse over time.<br>
>> <br>
>> Just switch to a no-code / low-code solution that lets you custom-build<br>
>> what you need, and that isn?t dependent on dozens of things that can<br>
>> change from week to week and month to month as the underlying platform<br>
>> is patched to fix newly-discovered exploits and the UI libs get updated<br>
>> by updates in the plugins and themes.<br>
>> <br>
>> -David Schwartz<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>>> On Nov 13, 2024, at 9:12 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss<br>
>>> <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Hi,<br>
>>> <br>
>>> This is kind of off topic, however WordPress is Open Source and I<br>
>>> would expect that the vast majority of WordPress is run on LAMP<br>
>>> servers.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> My daily driver is a 10 year old Dell that has an i5 with 16G of RAM<br>
>>> that runs Kubuntu 24.04lts.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> I am running a blog using WordPress that is hosted on an Ubuntu<br>
>>> server.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> I am having issues with the WordPress Gutenberg back end. I cannot<br>
>>> get it to do the things I want to do like bold text. At times is is<br>
>>> sluggish. I've read that WordPress has a 10 year plan to move to<br>
>>> JavaScript. There is not a lot of info available so it is unclear if<br>
>>> the PHP code will be replaced as well. If WordPress replaces the PHP<br>
>>> back end I will leave WordPress. As it is WordPress is hanging by a<br>
>>> thread.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> These problems are new. I am also having formatting issues which might<br>
>>> be due to my theme.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Is anyone having these issues or maybe other issues with WordPress?<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Ultimately I may create my own infrastructure or start building my own<br>
>>> theme.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Any feedback is very welcome.<br>
>>> <br>
>>> Keith<br>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------<br>
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>> <br>
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<br>
--<br>
James<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div><div><br clear="all"></div><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.<br><br>Stephen<br><br></div>