<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Let me correct you on a few things.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">1. Normalization of cat 5 hurricane? Considering our recorded history and that also of the British, the busiest year for hurricanes (and incidentally also the most intense) was 1778. In fact, the number of cat 5 storms hasn’t really increased on average much in the last 100 years. Also, I survived 2: Hurricane Andrew and Hurricane Hugo. Those were considered rare storms due to them being at max edge of cat 5. We don’t have a cat 6 rank. The physics behind such storms would preclude such an event.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">2. The water wars scenario you point to can be easily alleviated by building high volume desalinization plants along major coastlines. Those, of course, would require lots of power to run, but the availability of clean drinking water would certainly make them worth the cost. Also, researching and developing better water treatment technologies.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">3. Crop failures. Now, this is a sticky problem no matter how you cut it. Crop failures can be caused by a fair number of things, chief among them is drought (which I pointed out earlier is often cyclic). Also, specific plant based diseases, bad land management policies and other factors). Many such crop failures are often the direct result of weather. Yet, even though crop failures are emphasized in the “news media”, they aren’t really what is happening. There are several regions over the planet that have, in recent years seen bumper crops, which flies in the face of the “crop failure narrative” btw, bad government policies can also lead to crop failures (the 1930’s dust bowl is an example of bad government land practices, coupled with record temperatures and poor farming practices).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">4. “Climate refugees”? Pardon, but there have been ongoing studies showing that this isn’t necessarily the case. In fact, many who enter the US illegally sometimes encounter local officials asking why they really came here. The first answer always given is jobs, money and apparent freedom. Not climate. And as noted, the “Climate change narrative (regardless of the current name it is called) is falling apart at the seems. There is no hard, empirical data showing anything other than slight variations to natural cycles. About the only places where such a narrative would actually be factual are large, land area cities (like Phoenix Arizona, Los Angelas, Las Vegas, etc). It should also be noted that 95% of all weather station measuring technologies are located within the bounds of all major cities. Since most of those cities are on or near a coastline, that might skew the data a lot. Also, consider that more than 85% of the US population lives within 200 miles of a major coastline and you see how the data can be skewed.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">5. Replacing farmland with residential areas is a bit of a problem, admittedly. The Phoenix metro area used to be one of the largest cotton producing areas in the western half of the US. We were also responsible for supplying much of the citrus as well. Also, add corn, sourgum, alfalfa and other feed crops to that list and then take a look at what has happened since the 1980’s. There is also one additional problem with farmland and it’s directly related to who owns the most. The single largest farmland owner in the US is Bill Gates (yes, the very same that started Microsoft and also started a decades long war with the linux open source movement). The second largest is a country (and as you guessed it, it’s china). Now, if either Gates or China decide not to produce food (for whatever reason), guess what that means for the many other interconnected industries (as well as us consumers). Food costs across the board will rise radically fast. That, in and of itself, would be a very large variable in causing starvation. That problem would definitely be considered man caused.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">6. Underwater cities? So far, that concept is still on paper. There are many problems to overcome before that even comes close to any kind of reality.</div><div class="">Now, name calling isn’t a good way to win arguments. Basically, you used rule 4 of rules for radicals by accusing anyone that doesn’t agree with your assertion to be “An ethical Cripple”. Bad form dude. If you wanted a proper debate, this was not the way to win it. Now, some of the issues as stated are not easily within any realm of control. Hurricanes will happen and the primary driver for ALL weather on this planet is the same one that has been fusing hydrogen into helium for a better part of 5 billion years. Anyone who states otherwise is trying to sell you on something or try to con you.. One other argument that doesn’t wash (because the math won’t support it) is the carbon dioxide argument. Logically speaking, how is a gas that makes up less than 0.0417% of the earths atmosphere be a primary driver in climate change? The answer is, its effects are almost negligible. I say almost only because more CO2 means more plant growth (the only natural way to sequester carbon). The biggest (and most abundant) “greenhouse gas” is water vapor and can be impiracly proven on overcast nights. It does, however, have a double edge sword effect. Cloud cover can also reflect a lot of the suns heat back into space (so much so that it can actually trigger an ice age)). And yes, a lot of this is scientifically proven using the rigorous scientific method and not the religious edict method as used by politicians and politicized sscience types who are even barely qualified as scientists.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, many of the arguments you made have just fallen flat.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Anyway, I think that we have strayed away from the main topic for this group, which is Linux, Open source, employment in such fields that use such, etc.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Just remember Mark Twain’s Laments:</div><div class="">1. “Those who fail to pay attention to the news are often uninformed. However, those who do pay attention to the news are often badly MISinformed.”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">2. “There are lies, damnable lies and statistics.”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-Eric</div><div class="">From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Statistical analysis dept.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 28, 2021, at 3:01 AM, Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" class="">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">greg
zegan via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 14:16:27
+0000</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">(UTC)</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">><a href="https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(0,0,128)" class="">https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs</a></font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">></font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Allow
me to change the headline of this article to...</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">"Six
States Responsible Enough to Limit Computer Power
Consumption"</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Anyone
prioritizing their video game performance over the starvation,</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">water
wars, crop failures, climate refugees, underwater cities,
deserts</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">replacing
farmland, and normalization of cat 5 hurricanes that will</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">surely
come if we don't handle this situation correctly, is an
ethical</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">cripple.</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">And
anyone, who just has to have that superburner computer, of an age</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">not
likely to live until 2060 is just borrowing on a future they
know</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">they
won't repay.</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">And
it's not like you can't wait 4 years and have a computer using
a</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">couple
hundred wats that performs like today's 1000 watt
gargantuan.</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">SteveT</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Steve
Litt</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Spring
2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
Successful</font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Technologist <a href="http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(0,0,128)" class="">http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques</a></font></font></font></span><font color="#780373" class="">
</font>
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font size="4" class=""><font class="">mmmmmm No, I reject your attempt at
gas-lighting the discussion away from liberty infringing regulations.
I reject your blithe attempt to validate power hungry government
attempts to slowly curtail the freedoms of Americans. </font>
</font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class=""><font size="4" class=""><span style="background-color: transparent;" class="">All of those crises can and will be addressed
by private industry and not by some pencil pushing bureaucratic
cubicle rat. The Federal Government (one could also include state
governments) will never ever be able to address problems faster than
private industry will be able to. Look into FEMA’s response to
hurricane Katrina back in the late 2000’s as a prime example. Look
into that same </span>organizations<span style="background-color: transparent;" class=""> response to Puerto Rico and their recent
natural disaster.</span><br class=""></font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class=""><font size="4" class=""><span style="background-color: transparent;" class="">The climate changes. Humans need to adapt. To
think that we can hold back change of this magnitude is hubris. We
need to take better care of our things. Yes. But we also need to take
care of ourselves while we do that. You think a family in India, or
Africa is going to give a hoot about a 2 degree C increase in global
temperatures over the next 100 years? I suggest you rethink that
methodology if you do. Those families are only concerned about where
their next meal will come from.</span><br class=""></font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class=""><font size="4" class=""><span style="background-color: transparent;" class="">Anyone who wants a superburner computer and has
the capital to spend on it should be able to purchase it, and then
also worry about how they will power it. It is unethical to restrict
another human’s right to their pursuit of happiness so long as that
pursuit doesn’t directly infringe on another’s right to life,
liberty, and their own pursuit of happiness.</span><br class=""></font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class=""><font size="4" class=""><span style="background-color: transparent;" class="">I think it’s an amazing thing that technology
makes such marvelous advances in such a short time. Not a reason to
limit someone else’s liberty at this date.</span><br class=""></font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font class=""><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Aaron
Jones via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 15:04:58
-0700<br class="">
<br class="">
>Those are some dangerous statements.<br class="">
<br class="">
Dangerous
statements? What, are my statements going to insurance rates</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">going
up?</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><a href="https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a27180829/global-warming-is-already-costing-the-insurance-industry-historic-amounts/" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(0,0,128)" class=""><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a27180829/global-warming-is-already-costing-the-insurance-industry-historic-amounts/</font></font></font></span></a><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font></font><br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font size="4" class=""><font class="">Insurance rates? Why is that even being brought
up? It’s a problem for the insurer and the insuree to discuss. If
the insurer doesn’t like the risk of insuring someone’s hair
brained idea to build on the coast as the coast recedes….. sounds
like a problem for the person with the hair brained idea to build
where climate change is going to destroy their hair brained idea.
Only dangerous to that person… </font>
</font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Perhaps
my statements could cause an increase in annual
hurricane</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">energy:</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><a href="https://weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/2020-11-18-top-10-most-extreme-hurricane-seasons-2020" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(0,0,128)" class=""><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">https://weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/2020-11-18-top-10-most-extreme-hurricane-seasons-2020</font></font></font></span></a><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Oh,
I know. My statements are dangerous because they caused 20 years
of</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">drought
to the farmers in Western
Colorado:</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class=""><a href="https://www.cpr.org/2021/07/23/western-slope-drought-cattle-ranching/" target="_blank" style="color:rgb(0,0,128)" class="">https://www.cpr.org/2021/07/23/western-slope-drought-cattle-ranching/</a><br class="">
</font></font></font></span></font><br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font class=""><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="" size="4" class="">It
must be nice to be able to wave your hand and claim adverse weather
as proof to support your theories of what is dangerous. Here’s a
theory you can prove: living is dangerous and fraught with risk at
all points of life. </font></font></span><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
I
wasn't discussing China, but since you brought it up: Why in
the</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">WORLD
should China go through the inconvenience of reducing
carbon</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">emissions
and all forms of pollution if the US doesn't reduce energy</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">use
everywhere it can: Cars, airplanes, trucks, busses, lightbulbs,
and</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">yes,
computers?</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font></font><br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font size="4" class="">Why should China reduce their carbon footprint?
Maybe because they are the worst offender of greenhouse gas
emissions? Maybe because Their reduction of emissions will actually
do more for your cause than severely hampering America’s economy
will? How many days did they need to shut down their industry leading
up to the 2008 Olympics for clear skies?</font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font size="4" class=""><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions" style="color:rgb(0,0,128)" class="">List
of countries by greenhouse gas emissions - Wikipedia</a></font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font size="4" class=""><font class="">if you don’t like Wikipedia, maybe this site?
</font><a href="https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/greenhouse-gas-emissions-by-country" style="color:rgb(0,0,128)" class="">Greenhouse
Gas Emissions By Country 2021 (worldpopulationreview.com)</a>
</font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class=""><font size="4" class=""><font style="background-color:transparent" class="">of course, you should
probably take most of these reports with a grain of salt. Who knows
if they are valid and genuine? </font><font style="background-color:transparent" class=""><b style="" class="">Shrug</b></font></font><br class=""></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Now
I'll admit that those Dell Alienware computers, which from
their</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">components
sound like they're about 500 watts at full use, don't
sound</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">excessive.
And 20mpg highway didn't sound excessive in 2000 either, but</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">now
it does, because these laws and regulations forced car</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">manufacturers
to increase their gas efficiency, and now breathing in LA</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">is
a lot easier, and we're not as close to the tipping point as
we</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">otherwise
would have been.<br class="">
<br class="">
> But if you are war<br class="">
>hawking
here and trying to bait us into a pollution debate so you can<br class="">
>get
everyone to do the whole “war with China thing…” then you got
my<br class="">
>reply and I admit I got baited.<br class="">
<br class="">
Whoaaa, war
with China? Huh? Where'd THAT come from?</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font></font><br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font size="4" class="">War with China… came from a place
more realistic than pointing to increased Hurricane seasons and
Rainfall in Colorado… The only way China is going to curtail their
economic development is by direct global action in the form of
military might. </font>
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Meanwhile,
I'd be interested in hearing your age. I'm 71, so I don't</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">have
a dog in this fight: I'll be safely in my grave before this thing</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">is
more than an expense (hurricane insurance and repairs, higher
food</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">prices)
and an annoyance, but my kids will be around long enough that,</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">if
we play this wrong, they'll be impacted by climate refugees,
water</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">wars,
famine-causing drought, the whole bag of horrors. That's why I</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class=""><br class="">
</font><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font color="#650953" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">don't
get indignant when they tell me how much power to use.</font></font></font></span><font color="#650953" class="">
</font>
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font size="4" class="">Ooooo look! An appeal to
experience. Aside from an attempt to browbeat us young
whipper-snappers into silence… Why is your age even a discussion
point?</font>
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font color="#780373" class=""><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Eric
Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 21:22:33 -0700<br class="">
<br class="">
>It
is also interesting that those very same states that push EV’s
also<br class="">
>have not upgraded their power systems in quite some
time. California<br class="">
>is the leader on this list of shame with
rolling blackouts and<br class="">
>brownouts each summer.<br class="">
<br class="">
I
think this is unfair to California. Much of California is the
hottest</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">in
the US. Greenhouse gasses are created by everyone, but California</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">can
least afford to gain a degree. California is also the most</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">populous
state in the nation. So in spite of EV's and all their other</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">moves
to limit environmental damage, they can't reduce the heat
that</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">radiates
or blows into California, so they can't keep all their</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">citizens'
houses below 85 Fahrenheit. Hence the rolling blackouts.</font></font></span></font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font color="#780373" class=""><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="" size="4" class="">No.
Not unfair to California, their power grid is their responsibility to
maintain. If they fail to plan for the future and prepare for dry
seasons and update their infrastructure, their rolling brownouts are
on them. No where else has had this problem even though California is
not the only one affected by increased temperatures. California needs
to take better care of their things. Plain and simple.</font></font></font></span><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="" class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class=""></font>
<br class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">
>
They also want to put up more windmills, off</span><br class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">
>shore! Talk
about throwing good money after bad and causing those of</span><br class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">
>us
with computers that are capable of running linux no end of
trouble.</span><br class="">
<br class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">
I'm not sure how windmills cause havoc with
Linux. I thought that was</span></font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">done
by Microsoft.</font></font></span><br class="">
<br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">California
could sure use more fission reactors, but in a place where</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">7+
earthquakes are frequent, doing so is just too likely to
cause</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">another
Chernobyl. Plus, anything near the coast is likely to go</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">Fukushima
with a tsunami. They don't have a river capable of generating</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">huge
power from its current. They can't import from surrounding
states,</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">and
back in the day, when they imported from Texas, the Texan
power</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">companies
stiffed California's power grid in order to make a
bigger</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">profit.</font></font></span><br class="">
<br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">So,
other than solar, wind and conservation, I don't see what
other</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">options
California has.</font></font></span>
</font>
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font size="4" class="">First.
Chernobyl cannot happen in the West because we never built RBMK
reactors with a positive void co-efficient. We place reactors
inside containment vessels to help curtail fallout in the event of a
disaster. Attempt to invoke Chernobyl disaster as anti-nuclear
argument denied. Fukushima is more relevant because of California’s
relative location and geographical environment. That said. Nuclear
plants have only continued to become safer and more efficient. Safer
and more efficient than coal, gas, and maybe even “renewable
sources” Nuclear should be more seriously discussed as a viable
alternative power source. </font>
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font color="#780373" class=""><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">It
leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard.
Boo</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">hoo
hoo.</font></font></span></font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font color="#780373" class=""><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="" size="4" class="">It
leaves us with our liberty just slightly more chipped away at. It
leaves us with a government emboldened to infringe on rights just ever so more. </font></font></font></span><br class="">
<br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">What's
this fascination with China that you all have? China uses the</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">energy
equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">people,
equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the equivalent
of</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">18,684
million barrels and has 328 million people, equaling 56.9</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">barrels
per person.</font></font></span><br class="">
</font><br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font size="4" class=""><font color="#780373" class=""><font face="Arial, sans-serif" class=""><font class="">See
above discussion on China’s CO2 production. Oil is only a part of
that carbon footprint. Go do more research. </font></font></font>
</font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">So
here's the question: If some country using almost triple the
energy</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">per
person than your country says *you* are the problem and should
cut,</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">and
they won't do squat until you cut, what would you say to them?</font></font></span></font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font color="#780373" class=""><font size="4" class=""><font class="">Question
invalid. Communist Dictatorships don’t give a hoot what outsiders
say. Unless that speech is in the form of military might bearing down
on said dictatorship. </font><br class=""></font>
<br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">You
ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves
you</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">having
lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it leaves you</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">with
a very hard (and probably considerably foreshortened) second half</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">of
your life. If you were just born today, by the time you
graduate</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">college,
the world will be rife with climate refugees and water wars,</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">and
by the time you're 50, if you last that long, the population</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">decline
will be brutal and pretty universal except for the very rich.</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">All
because everybody in 2021 said the other guy should cut his</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">emissions
first.</font></font></span><br class="">
</font><br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font size="4" class="">Life is hard.
Always will be. There will always be something new to be a risk.</font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font color="#780373" class=""><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">One
more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according
to</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">them
the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as those</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">of
the EU.</font></font></span><br class="">
<br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">I
feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who
play</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">at
a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry for
their</font></font></span><br class="">
<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal" class=""><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" class=""><font style="font-size:12pt" class="">grandchildren.</font></font></span>
</font>
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<br class="">
</p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class="">
<font size="4" class="">Your feigned sympathy just undermines your attempts at argument for your cause of infringing on liberty. </font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class=""></font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class=""><font size="4" class="">Final Analysis, You must hate the freedom Linux provides to its users and the liberty with which we may embark upon through its use.</font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class=""></font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class=""><font size="4" class="">Olive Branch: If you would like to meet up at a park where we can social distance and have a veggie burger while I grill up some brats, I'd be willing to bring the makings for a BBQ and we can discuss these details in a more civil manner than Keyboard Warriors. </font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class=""><font size="4" class=""><br class=""></font></p><p style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:100%;background:transparent" class=""><font size="4" class="">Matt</font></p></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:13 AM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" class="">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700<br class="">
<br class="">
>So, guys, nice little debate we all got snagged into here because of<br class="">
>some state regulations that would prevent nearly 60 million people<br class="">
>from owning technologies that would make their lives more convenient.<br class="">
>Regulations put in place by politicians who know nothing of real<br class="">
>science and are trying to kiss up to china. Now, where does that leave<br class="">
>us?<br class="">
<br class="">
It leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard. Boo<br class="">
hoo hoo. <br class="">
<br class="">
What's this fascination with China that you all have? China uses the<br class="">
energy equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million<br class="">
people, equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the equivalent of<br class="">
18,684 million barrels and has 328 million people, equaling 56.9<br class="">
barrels per person.<br class="">
<br class="">
So here's the question: If some country using almost triple the energy<br class="">
per person than your country says *you* are the problem and should cut,<br class="">
and they won't do squat until you cut, what would you say to them? <br class="">
<br class="">
You ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves you<br class="">
having lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it leaves you<br class="">
with a very hard (and probably considerably foreshortened) second half<br class="">
of your life. If you were just born today, by the time you graduate<br class="">
college, the world will be rife with climate refugees and water wars,<br class="">
and by the time you're 50, if you last that long, the population<br class="">
decline will be brutal and pretty universal except for the very rich.<br class="">
All because everybody in 2021 said the other guy should cut his<br class="">
emissions first.<br class="">
<br class="">
One more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according to<br class="">
them the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as those<br class="">
of the EU.<br class="">
<br class="">
I feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who play<br class="">
at a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry for their<br class="">
grandchildren.<br class="">
<br class="">
SteveT<br class="">
<br class="">
Steve Litt <br class="">
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful<br class="">
Technologist <a href="http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques</a><br class="">
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