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<p>Better than a lot of people around here get. I hope it's
available here soon.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/27/20 8:30 AM, Michael Butash
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CADWnDsvzFuv+m7vcS4-_HQ9CHnN3sC_f3=r22mT5ONpwD7LOjw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Saw this today, interesting.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="https://testmy.net/hoststats/spacex_starlink"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://testmy.net/hoststats/spacex_starlink</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 2:09
PM Jim <<a href="mailto:azanorak@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">azanorak@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Wait until Musk's Starlink is available. Legacy phone
companies offering DSL won't have a chance.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/22/20 9:05 AM, Michael Butash wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Exactly, this is a common scenario these days,
where people are stuck in their area with their crappy
legacy isp's that are unwilling to invest in
upgrading, or even just fixing what they have today.
Take back the power. This is really on a per-ISP
basis how good they are about doing so, but cable
providers seem WAY ahead of any traditional 2-wire
telco. Cox was actually one of the best I've worked
with, they actually fix old cable plants they've
acquired over time that are sub-standard, at least
around Phoenix.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Back in 2003 when I was looking at doing the
residential isp thing, I tried a few things, including
mounting a big ass 2.4ghz antenna on my house and
doing some 802.11 testing outside to see what sort of
performance I'd get even from say my direct neighbor's
house. It was crap, even using proper cisco
high-power commercial AP's at the time, so mostly
scrapped that as it would be mostly unsupportable
and/or unsellable. There wasn't any better other than
Microwave, which was/is still quite pricey to do.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Last year working with a Cali municipal ISP in
Santa Monica, they do business and residential
last-mile fiber for 1-10gbe connections, typically
much cheaper than anyone there as they reuse their own
city fiber used for traffic and emergency systems all
over the city. Any sort of construction, particularly
street cuts, gets uber expensive, so we started using
some wireless point to multipoint devices using
technically 5g or mm-wave 60ghz connections that can
do I think up to 5 connections per unit, which were
small and non-descript. We dropped these on a stop
light we were in already, pointed at the general area
we wanted to cover, deployed our first customer in a
week. It helped we *were* the city to do so, but not
to say you can't add a small tower in your backyard
for the hood.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This came with 1gbps rates to each end node, at
roughly 1000ft line of sight, so was a bit more ideal
potentially for a residential wireless isp type of
setup, or at least localized instances, and just
needed to get a 1/10g single-mode ethernet connection
to the multipoint unit. Perfect for neighborhood isp
setups, this was using Siklu components, but Ubiquiti
makes them too, I'm sure others. Even better after
they start showing up on Ebay cheap.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I love this sort of networking stuff, working
around the Man and such, building ISP's - I'm always
happy to help explore these concepts if someone is
serious about wanting to do so. Who's got the VC
hookups? Will work for bandwidth.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 21, 2020
at 11:23 AM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>I read something once about a lawyer who set up
his own ISP. The phone company wouldn't supply
DSL to the rural area where he lived. The only
internet service available was dialup. He found
that from the roof of his barn, he had line of
sight to the building the law firm had its offices
in. He found some interested neighbors and set up
a microwave link from his barn to the office. The
local phone company did lease him the lines he
needed to provide DSL to his neighbors. <br>
</p>
<div>On 8/20/20 2:28 PM, Stephen Partington via
PLUG-discuss wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Part
of me really would enjoy setting something
like this up. The new High speed and dedicated
wireless/microwave tools we have now are
pretty dang phenomenal and could lead to a
decent wireless/wired hybrid internet service.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug
20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via
PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I'm not sure I could live somewhere
with crap internet, I would probably go
about forming some sort of local isp of
sorts if enough folks around to be worth
it. It's not exactly hard, backward
telcos and cable companies can figure it
out, it's all capital cost up front and
who pays for it, ideally more than just
you.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some
baller customers with DS3's to their house
(one ran an isp in his basement), which
really meant we installed an OC3 fiber
node there, and gave them a third of it.
These were maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits,
but the construction to get fiber to their
crib alone might be $30-50k. One customer
in the middle of a lake community was more
to build into. Either they lock you into
a 5yr or more contract to make that
construction cost back, or you pay it up
front.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Back then, I worked a lot with the
project group that did construction, so I
sat down with someone and we looked at
getting fiber to my house for some baller
service myself, ideally with some employee
discount... They estimated roughly $35k
in cost alone for construction, including
construction street cuts to bury fiber,
permitting, etc, let alone service, and
mine wasn't terribly complex. I
considered reselling to neighbors, but
back then expensive gigabit options
probably weren't too attractive to general
consumers in 2003. I stuck with my cable
modem, they didn't pay that well.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Today that would probably be equivalent
to a 10GbE+ drop to your house, but at
scale of cost most likely. Resell that to
your neighbors for some premium bandwidth,
everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors
aren't all luddites. Some rural
communities are doing this, when AT&T
and others aren't shutting them down.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu,
Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via
PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">I'd brush up on fiber
splicing lol
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>AT&T is still fscked up. The
tech came out today and told me
that the cutoff for the service is
4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from
the box the modem talks to. He
ran some test anyway and confirmed
it's not available. He told me he
has heard of no plans to bring
fiber to my neighborhood, but said
it is available in a small town 5
miles up the road from me in one
direction. 3 miles down the road
in the other direction is a
subdivision that has it. The
fiber runs next to the highway
less than a hundred yards from
here. I guess it's time to see
what other options if any are
available.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael
Butash wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I think it mostly comes
down to the fact that they can
only really guarantee 2 or 4
wires to a premise for
residential telco, probably
more modern deployments a full
8 wires (ala CatX), though
their traditional copper
distribution isn't built for
it unless commercial (their
big PED on the roads your
neighborhood comes back to.
Probably something in the
telcordia standards back to ma
bell days that says that is
just how it is. Since the
plants are non-shielded,
non-twisted pair cabling too,
it can only modulate so high,
particularly when poorly
run/done, which is why you're
stuck at 12mbps.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If they had to change your
home copper, they'd just run
fiber, neither will happen
likely. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The DSL bonding is already
a hack to get more bandwidth
when DSL itself is stuck in
time now at raw theoretical
limits. Combining more
physical channels as these
were would be trivial, if
copper were available, and
telcos wanted to support it.
Someone would need to make the
modem too. Technically cable
modems do this, literally
taking "channels" or slices or
spectrum on the wire, and
load-balancing them
internally, up to 24 or 32
channels for multi-gig
capabilities. Same with
ethernet, taking 8 into a
port-channel and balancing
across them, whether 100
megabit or 400 gigabit
ethernet. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>AT&T is the most ghetto
provider out there still, and
always has been imho. Moving
to San Jose in '99, there was
AT&T Cable TV installed by
the owners, which consisted of
2x of your standard coax ala
modern cable from the outside,
and required a physical a/b
switch box to switch between
13 channels on one, and 13
channels on another. First I
looked at it, and was confused
enough I had to call them and
ask wtf the cable "channels"
worked to realize just how bad
it was, and I then worked for
the original @home cable isp
company then supporting
AT&T cable modems! The
images were even snowy, the
service was so bad even a tech
couldn't (read: wouldn't)
improve. When I asked about a
cable modem, they laughed at
me, so I had to get DSL (phat
1.5mbps then), disconnected
the useless cable tv (yay
usenet alt.binaries.video even
then), and threw up a finger
to AT&T.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can only imagine how bad
AT&T's DSL is if they
couldn't figure out even
coax. My experience
supporting their customers for
Cable Modem data in '99,
relatively new tech then,
wasn't much better, as if the
cable plant to your house was
broke, it tended to just stay
broke despite our rolling
their techs to fix it. Then
they'd get angry at us for
doing so and tell us to stop
rolling so many trucks to fix
things.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sigh.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Having grown up in Phoenix
where Dimension, and later Cox
actually had their shit
(relatively) together, this
was an inconceivable atrocity
but exactly what I'd expect of
AT&T. Thanks to them (and
Comcast, all the media cartels
now really) owning the FCC now
with your tax dollars, it'll
never, ever, get better
either. Good thing Net
Neutrality and consumer rights
weren't really needed after
all!<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug
15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>150 Mbps, you're lucky.
Here AT&T has to bond
2 pairs so I can get 25
Mbps. At least it's not
comcast. I wonder how
many pairs they could
bond. Is there a
technical limit or is it
just a matter of how many
they want to bond? As
more people abandon
landlines, that leaves
more capacity for AT&T
to bond multiple pairs for
internet customers.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/10/20 11:21 AM,
Michael Butash via
PLUG-discuss wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So I went through
this moving from Cox
to CenturyLink, and
pretty much as
described, fairly
painless.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><tldr><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I had scheduled a
CL tech to install me
for new service a few
years ago, and we
first hit the outside
where CL ran their
cabling in. It was an
ancient telephony
distribution from the
90's, and I've never
had a land-line in my
house since owning it
in 2002. My house
built in 95 at least
used cat5 or like, so
I have 4 pairs to
every room, so 2 pairs
I need was just fine
for bonded DSL He
ripped out the old
block, removing the
house cabling but the
one, and isolated the
particular line we
needed to my office
where the modem lives,
added an approved
jack, done. Bonded
dsl is 2x 2-wire
channels, and they
essentially
load-balance 75+75mbps
channels. I have
tested this to n-by
gigabit upstreams.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phone only
guarantees 2 wires are
available, so telcos
built on this 100
years ago are a bit
assed-out on passable
high-frequency
modulation schemas in
use for data and other
things to move beyond
where they're at. DSL
makes up for this,
particularly when
double up on wires it
gets better, but still
unshielded and prone
to breakdown. Problem
is mostly it isn't
shielded, thus capable
of very high frequency
modulation ala
Cable/DOCSIS, so it
will never go much
further than it has
today whereas Cable
scales to gigabits
with channelization
and QAM modulation at
32bit rates.</div>
<br>
<div>VDSL tech is
capable of roughly
75mbps per channel,
and 2x of these get
you to around CL's
bonded DSL limits.
This also includes
your distance
limitations to your
local DSLAM, or
regional router that
terminates your data
that degrades this
eventually further you
are from it, so it's a
bit tricky. It's been
stuck here for years,
and pretty much at
life end. This is why
my cousin living half
a mile from me can
only get 75mbps from
CL and I can with
bonded @150mbps here.
Old crap network
there.<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Fiber,
particularly Single
Mode, gives you
whatever to ~100GbE,
but depends on how
your provider does
low-rate Passive
Optical Networking
(PON) today for
residential fiber.
Not quite the same
as a business data
network, but any
fiber is better than
copper networks.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why Centurylink's
only hope for the
future is fiber vs.
copper in new builds.
I like my 25yr old
house still, so no
fiber for me ever.
Unless I street cut my
block for fiber
myself, which I've
considered, just need
to get my neighbors to
buy into me as their
new gigabit isp. ;)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail_attr">On
Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at
1:27 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px
solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Ok. I won't
complain if I have
to go out and buy
a 4 conductor
phone cord.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/7/20 9:05
AM, Stephen
Partington wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
class="gmail_default">My
understanding
of this is
that they will
activate the
second pair
that is
commonly used
in the RJ-43
port in your
wall. This
will allow 2
lines active
to the device.</div>
<div
class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_default">Changes
inside might
need to happen
if your
residence does
not have 4
wire (2 line)
compatibility.
(IE 2 pairs to
the jack vs 1
pair)</div>
</div>
<br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr"
class="gmail_attr">On
Thu, Aug 6,
2020 at 9:10
PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss
<<a
href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Where
I live, I get
AT&T for
my DSL
service. I've
signed up for
an <br>
upgrade from
10 Mbps to
25. I finally
got someone
there who
would tell <br>
me why a
technician
visit is
required for
the upgrade.
They're
bonding 2 <br>
pairs to
supply the
faster speed
here. I've
read up online
about DSL <br>
bonding. I
understand
that one pair
will carry
some of the
data, and <br>
the other pair
will carry
some. But one
thing I didn't
find out was <br>
whether or not
anything will
change between
the wall jack
and the <br>
modem. Is
everything
done outside
or do they
have to come
inside? I <br>
currently have
a 2 conductor
cord
connecting my
modem to the
wall jack. <br>
Will that have
to be replaced
with a 4
conductor
cord? Do they
install <br>
an extra box
outside or
inside? I
guess all will
be answered on
the <br>
18th when the
guy is
scheduled to
be here. I'm
really curious
how this <br>
works.<br>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">A
mouse trap,
placed on top of
your alarm
clock, will
prevent you from
rolling over and
going back to
sleep after you
hit the snooze
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<br>
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<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">A mouse trap, placed on top of your
alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over
and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze
button.<br>
<br>
Stephen<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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