<div dir="ltr"><div>Exactly, this is a common scenario these days, where people are stuck in their area with their crappy legacy isp's that are unwilling to invest in upgrading, or even just fixing what they have today. Take back the power. This is really on a per-ISP basis how good they are about doing so, but cable providers seem WAY ahead of any traditional 2-wire telco. Cox was actually one of the best I've worked with, they actually fix old cable plants they've acquired over time that are sub-standard, at least around Phoenix.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Back in 2003 when I was looking at doing the residential isp thing, I tried a few things, including mounting a big ass 2.4ghz antenna on my house and doing some 802.11 testing outside to see what sort of performance I'd get even from say my direct neighbor's house. It was crap, even using proper cisco high-power commercial AP's at the time, so mostly scrapped that as it would be mostly unsupportable and/or unsellable. There wasn't any better other than Microwave, which was/is still quite pricey to do.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Last year working with a Cali municipal ISP in Santa Monica, they do business and residential last-mile fiber for 1-10gbe connections, typically much cheaper than anyone there as they reuse their own city fiber used for traffic and emergency systems all over the city. Any sort of construction, particularly street cuts, gets uber expensive, so we started using some wireless point to multipoint devices using technically 5g or mm-wave 60ghz connections that can do I think up to 5 connections per unit, which were small and non-descript. We dropped these on a stop light we were in already, pointed at the general area we wanted to cover, deployed our first customer in a week. It helped we *were* the city to do so, but not to say you can't add a small tower in your backyard for the hood.<br></div><div></div><div><br></div><div>This came with 1gbps rates to each end node, at roughly 1000ft line of sight, so was a bit more ideal potentially for a residential wireless isp type of setup, or at least localized instances, and just needed to get a 1/10g single-mode ethernet connection to the multipoint unit. Perfect for neighborhood isp setups, this was using Siklu components, but Ubiquiti makes them too, I'm sure others. Even better after they start showing up on Ebay cheap.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I love this sort of networking stuff, working around the Man and such, building ISP's - I'm always happy to help explore these concepts if someone is serious about wanting to do so. Who's got the VC hookups? Will work for bandwidth.<br></div><div><br></div><div>-mb</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>I read something once about a lawyer who set up his own ISP. The
phone company wouldn't supply DSL to the rural area where he
lived. The only internet service available was dialup. He found
that from the roof of his barn, he had line of sight to the
building the law firm had its offices in. He found some
interested neighbors and set up a microwave link from his barn to
the office. The local phone company did lease him the lines he
needed to provide DSL to his neighbors. <br>
</p>
<div>On 8/20/20 2:28 PM, Stephen Partington
via PLUG-discuss wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Part of me really would enjoy setting something
like this up. The new High speed and dedicated
wireless/microwave tools we have now are pretty dang
phenomenal and could lead to a decent wireless/wired hybrid
internet service.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19
PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet,
I would probably go about forming some sort of local isp
of sorts if enough folks around to be worth it. It's not
exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies can
figure it out, it's all capital cost up front and who pays
for it, ideally more than just you.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller
customers with DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his
basement), which really meant we installed an OC3 fiber
node there, and gave them a third of it. These were maybe
$2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to get fiber
to their crib alone might be $30-50k. One customer in the
middle of a lake community was more to build into. Either
they lock you into a 5yr or more contract to make that
construction cost back, or you pay it up front.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that
did construction, so I sat down with someone and we looked
at getting fiber to my house for some baller service
myself, ideally with some employee discount... They
estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for construction,
including construction street cuts to bury fiber,
permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine wasn't
terribly complex. I considered reselling to neighbors,
but back then expensive gigabit options probably weren't
too attractive to general consumers in 2003. I stuck with
my cable modem, they didn't pay that well.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+
drop to your house, but at scale of cost most likely.
Resell that to your neighbors for some premium bandwidth,
everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all
luddites. Some rural communities are doing this, when
AT&T and others aren't shutting them down.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at
9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">I'd brush up on fiber splicing lol
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 18, 2020,
1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>AT&T is still fscked up. The tech came out
today and told me that the cutoff for the service
is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the box the
modem talks to. He ran some test anyway and
confirmed it's not available. He told me he has
heard of no plans to bring fiber to my
neighborhood, but said it is available in a small
town 5 miles up the road from me in one
direction. 3 miles down the road in the other
direction is a subdivision that has it. The fiber
runs next to the highway less than a hundred yards
from here. I guess it's time to see what other
options if any are available.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I think it mostly comes down to the fact
that they can only really guarantee 2 or 4
wires to a premise for residential telco,
probably more modern deployments a full 8
wires (ala CatX), though their traditional
copper distribution isn't built for it unless
commercial (their big PED on the roads your
neighborhood comes back to. Probably
something in the telcordia standards back to
ma bell days that says that is just how it
is. Since the plants are non-shielded,
non-twisted pair cabling too, it can only
modulate so high, particularly when poorly
run/done, which is why you're stuck at 12mbps.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If they had to change your home copper,
they'd just run fiber, neither will happen
likely. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The DSL bonding is already a hack to get
more bandwidth when DSL itself is stuck in
time now at raw theoretical limits. Combining
more physical channels as these were would be
trivial, if copper were available, and telcos
wanted to support it. Someone would need to
make the modem too. Technically cable modems
do this, literally taking "channels" or slices
or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing
them internally, up to 24 or 32 channels for
multi-gig capabilities. Same with ethernet,
taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing
across them, whether 100 megabit or 400
gigabit ethernet. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>AT&T is the most ghetto provider out
there still, and always has been imho. Moving
to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable
TV installed by the owners, which consisted of
2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from
the outside, and required a physical a/b
switch box to switch between 13 channels on
one, and 13 channels on another. First I
looked at it, and was confused enough I had to
call them and ask wtf the cable "channels"
worked to realize just how bad it was, and I
then worked for the original @home cable isp
company then supporting AT&T cable
modems! The images were even snowy, the
service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read:
wouldn't) improve. When I asked about a cable
modem, they laughed at me, so I had to get DSL
(phat 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless
cable tv (yay usenet alt.binaries.video even
then), and threw up a finger to AT&T.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL
is if they couldn't figure out even coax. My
experience supporting their customers for
Cable Modem data in '99, relatively new tech
then, wasn't much better, as if the cable
plant to your house was broke, it tended to
just stay broke despite our rolling their
techs to fix it. Then they'd get angry at us
for doing so and tell us to stop rolling so
many trucks to fix things.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sigh.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension,
and later Cox actually had their shit
(relatively) together, this was an
inconceivable atrocity but exactly what I'd
expect of AT&T. Thanks to them (and
Comcast, all the media cartels now really)
owning the FCC now with your tax dollars,
it'll never, ever, get better either. Good
thing Net Neutrality and consumer rights
weren't really needed after all!<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug
15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here AT&T
has to bond 2 pairs so I can get 25
Mbps. At least it's not comcast. I
wonder how many pairs they could bond. Is
there a technical limit or is it just a
matter of how many they want to bond? As
more people abandon landlines, that leaves
more capacity for AT&T to bond
multiple pairs for internet customers.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via
PLUG-discuss wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So I went through this moving from
Cox to CenturyLink, and pretty much as
described, fairly painless.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><tldr><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I had scheduled a CL tech to
install me for new service a few years
ago, and we first hit the outside
where CL ran their cabling in. It was
an ancient telephony distribution from
the 90's, and I've never had a
land-line in my house since owning it
in 2002. My house built in 95 at
least used cat5 or like, so I have 4
pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need
was just fine for bonded DSL He
ripped out the old block, removing the
house cabling but the one, and
isolated the particular line we needed
to my office where the modem lives,
added an approved jack, done. Bonded
dsl is 2x 2-wire channels, and they
essentially load-balance 75+75mbps
channels. I have tested this to n-by
gigabit upstreams.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phone only guarantees 2 wires are
available, so telcos built on this 100
years ago are a bit assed-out on
passable high-frequency modulation
schemas in use for data and other
things to move beyond where they're
at. DSL makes up for this,
particularly when double up on wires
it gets better, but still unshielded
and prone to breakdown. Problem is
mostly it isn't shielded, thus capable
of very high frequency modulation ala
Cable/DOCSIS, so it will never go much
further than it has today whereas
Cable scales to gigabits with
channelization and QAM modulation at
32bit rates.</div>
<br>
<div>VDSL tech is capable of roughly
75mbps per channel, and 2x of these
get you to around CL's bonded DSL
limits. This also includes your
distance limitations to your local
DSLAM, or regional router that
terminates your data that degrades
this eventually further you are from
it, so it's a bit tricky. It's been
stuck here for years, and pretty much
at life end. This is why my cousin
living half a mile from me can only
get 75mbps from CL and I can with
bonded @150mbps here. Old crap
network there.<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Fiber, particularly Single Mode,
gives you whatever to ~100GbE, but
depends on how your provider does
low-rate Passive Optical Networking
(PON) today for residential fiber.
Not quite the same as a business
data network, but any fiber is
better than copper networks.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why Centurylink's only hope for the
future is fiber vs. copper in new
builds. I like my 25yr old house
still, so no fiber for me ever.
Unless I street cut my block for fiber
myself, which I've considered, just
need to get my neighbors to buy into
me as their new gigabit isp. ;)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Ok. I won't complain if I have
to go out and buy a 4 conductor
phone cord.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen
Partington wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default">My
understanding of this is that
they will activate the second
pair that is commonly used in
the RJ-43 port in your wall.
This will allow 2 lines active
to the device.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default">Changes
inside might need to happen if
your residence does not have 4
wire (2 line) compatibility.
(IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1
pair)</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug
6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Where
I live, I get AT&T for my
DSL service. I've signed up
for an <br>
upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25. I
finally got someone there who
would tell <br>
me why a technician visit is
required for the upgrade.
They're bonding 2 <br>
pairs to supply the faster
speed here. I've read up
online about DSL <br>
bonding. I understand that
one pair will carry some of
the data, and <br>
the other pair will carry
some. But one thing I didn't
find out was <br>
whether or not anything will
change between the wall jack
and the <br>
modem. Is everything done
outside or do they have to
come inside? I <br>
currently have a 2 conductor
cord connecting my modem to
the wall jack. <br>
Will that have to be replaced
with a 4 conductor cord? Do
they install <br>
an extra box outside or
inside? I guess all will be
answered on the <br>
18th when the guy is scheduled
to be here. I'm really
curious how this <br>
works.<br>
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</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">A mouse trap,
placed on top of your alarm
clock, will prevent you from
rolling over and going back to
sleep after you hit the snooze
button.<br>
<br>
Stephen<br>
<br>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">A mouse trap, placed on top
of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and
going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.<br>
<br>
Stephen<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
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