<div dir="ltr"><div>I have a buddy, technically an old boss of mine, that lived up in Cave Creek area years ago maybe circa 2010, he was using some no-name wireless isp, but reached out and got to know the guy. Guess he was another network dude like us that setup shop to do residential wifi up in that end of town, as CL/Cox didn't want to build up there, and he was looking for something decent to use. Same old story, telco says you live in a shi!t end of town, can't get any good service, blah blah, but someone lives there with a clue, and does the DIY. <br></div><div><br></div><div>I love that sort of thing. I felt a bit this way working for @home back in '99, as they were doing exactly that, where telco lecs couldn't dream beyond pstn and dialup networks. During early housing boom of 2000's, I'd considered this.<br></div><div><br></div><div> I found myself unemployed around 2002 before cox, and working with an acquaintance, we did a pitch for a gigabit build community I put together in a new housing build, spec'ing a used ebay Cisco 6509's and a model property that would serve as a DC for the neighborhood to terminate a switch in each house. Economics wasn't quite right, and people were still learning what Internet was, so didn't make much sense then, but today I would do it in a minute.</div><div><br></div><div>I do a lot of high performance networking, and have up to currently 40gbe networking in my house across test devices, all acquirable cheaply on secondary markets like ebay for less than $1000 for 32x40gbe switches, or roughly 128 10gbe connections in a 1RU form factor. Build a neighborhood gigabit isp? Sure, sounds like fun, who's in with me?</div><div><br></div><div><crickets></div><div><br></div><div>-mb</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 2:29 PM Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this up. The new High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now are pretty dang phenomenal and could lead to a decent wireless/wired hybrid internet service.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I would probably go about forming some sort of local isp of sorts if enough folks around to be worth it. It's not exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies can figure it out, it's all capital cost up front and who pays for it, ideally more than just you.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which really meant we installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave them a third of it. These were maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to get fiber to their crib alone might be $30-50k. One customer in the middle of a lake community was more to build into. Either they lock you into a 5yr or more contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay it up front.</div><div><br></div><div>Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did construction, so I sat down with someone and we looked at getting fiber to my house for some baller service myself, ideally with some employee discount... They estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for construction, including construction street cuts to bury fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine wasn't terribly complex. I considered reselling to neighbors, but back then expensive gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to general consumers in 2003. I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay that well.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your house, but at scale of cost most likely. Resell that to your neighbors for some premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all luddites. Some rural communities are doing this, when AT&T and others aren't shutting them down.</div><div><br></div><div>-mb</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">I'd brush up on fiber splicing lol<div dir="auto"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>AT&T is still fscked up. The tech came out today and told me
that the cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet
from the box the modem talks to. He ran some test anyway and
confirmed it's not available. He told me he has heard of no plans
to bring fiber to my neighborhood, but said it is available in a
small town 5 miles up the road from me in one direction. 3 miles
down the road in the other direction is a subdivision that has
it. The fiber runs next to the highway less than a hundred yards
from here. I guess it's time to see what other options if any are
available.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only
really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential
telco, probably more modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala
CatX), though their traditional copper distribution isn't
built for it unless commercial (their big PED on the roads
your neighborhood comes back to. Probably something in the
telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is
just how it is. Since the plants are non-shielded,
non-twisted pair cabling too, it can only modulate so high,
particularly when poorly run/done, which is why you're stuck
at 12mbps.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run
fiber, neither will happen likely. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth
when DSL itself is stuck in time now at raw theoretical
limits. Combining more physical channels as these were would
be trivial, if copper were available, and telcos wanted to
support it. Someone would need to make the modem too.
Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels"
or slices or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them
internally, up to 24 or 32 channels for multi-gig
capabilities. Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a
port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or
400 gigabit ethernet. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and
always has been imho. Moving to San Jose in '99, there was
AT&T Cable TV installed by the owners, which consisted of
2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from the outside,
and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
channels on one, and 13 channels on another. First I looked
at it, and was confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf
the cable "channels" worked to realize just how bad it was,
and I then worked for the original @home cable isp company
then supporting AT&T cable modems! The images were even
snowy, the service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read:
wouldn't) improve. When I asked about a cable modem, they
laughed at me, so I had to get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then),
disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet
alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to
AT&T.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they
couldn't figure out even coax. My experience supporting their
customers for Cable Modem data in '99, relatively new tech
then, wasn't much better, as if the cable plant to your house
was broke, it tended to just stay broke despite our rolling
their techs to fix it. Then they'd get angry at us for doing
so and tell us to stop rolling so many trucks to fix things.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sigh.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox
actually had their shit (relatively) together, this was an
inconceivable atrocity but exactly what I'd expect of
AT&T. Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the media cartels
now really) owning the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll
never, ever, get better either. Good thing Net Neutrality and
consumer rights weren't really needed after all!<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42
PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here AT&T has to bond 2
pairs so I can get 25 Mbps. At least it's not comcast.
I wonder how many pairs they could bond. Is there a
technical limit or is it just a matter of how many they
want to bond? As more people abandon landlines, that
leaves more capacity for AT&T to bond multiple pairs
for internet customers.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So I went through this moving from Cox to
CenturyLink, and pretty much as described, fairly
painless.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><tldr><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new
service a few years ago, and we first hit the outside
where CL ran their cabling in. It was an ancient
telephony distribution from the 90's, and I've never
had a land-line in my house since owning it in 2002.
My house built in 95 at least used cat5 or like, so I
have 4 pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need was just
fine for bonded DSL He ripped out the old block,
removing the house cabling but the one, and isolated
the particular line we needed to my office where the
modem lives, added an approved jack, done. Bonded dsl
is 2x 2-wire channels, and they essentially
load-balance 75+75mbps channels. I have tested this
to n-by gigabit upstreams.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so
telcos built on this 100 years ago are a bit assed-out
on passable high-frequency modulation schemas in use
for data and other things to move beyond where they're
at. DSL makes up for this, particularly when double
up on wires it gets better, but still unshielded and
prone to breakdown. Problem is mostly it isn't
shielded, thus capable of very high frequency
modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, so it will never go much
further than it has today whereas Cable scales to
gigabits with channelization and QAM modulation at
32bit rates.</div>
<br>
<div>VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per channel,
and 2x of these get you to around CL's bonded DSL
limits. This also includes your distance limitations
to your local DSLAM, or regional router that
terminates your data that degrades this eventually
further you are from it, so it's a bit tricky. It's
been stuck here for years, and pretty much at life
end. This is why my cousin living half a mile from me
can only get 75mbps from CL and I can with bonded
@150mbps here. Old crap network there.<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you
whatever to ~100GbE, but depends on how your
provider does low-rate Passive Optical Networking
(PON) today for residential fiber. Not quite the
same as a business data network, but any fiber is
better than copper networks.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is fiber
vs. copper in new builds. I like my 25yr old house
still, so no fiber for me ever. Unless I street cut
my block for fiber myself, which I've considered, just
need to get my neighbors to buy into me as their new
gigabit isp. ;)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at
1:27 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Ok. I won't complain if I have to go out and buy
a 4 conductor phone cord.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">My
understanding of this is that they will
activate the second pair that is commonly used
in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This will
allow 2 lines active to the device.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:"trebuchet ms",sans-serif">Changes
inside might need to happen if your residence
does not have 4 wire (2 line) compatibility.
(IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1 pair)</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 6,
2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Where I
live, I get AT&T for my DSL service. I've
signed up for an <br>
upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25. I finally got
someone there who would tell <br>
me why a technician visit is required for the
upgrade. They're bonding 2 <br>
pairs to supply the faster speed here. I've
read up online about DSL <br>
bonding. I understand that one pair will
carry some of the data, and <br>
the other pair will carry some. But one thing
I didn't find out was <br>
whether or not anything will change between
the wall jack and the <br>
modem. Is everything done outside or do they
have to come inside? I <br>
currently have a 2 conductor cord connecting
my modem to the wall jack. <br>
Will that have to be replaced with a 4
conductor cord? Do they install <br>
an extra box outside or inside? I guess all
will be answered on the <br>
18th when the guy is scheduled to be here.
I'm really curious how this <br>
works.<br>
---------------------------------------------------<br>
PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a><br>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your
mail settings:<br>
<a href="https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">A mouse trap, placed on top of your
alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over
and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze
button.<br>
<br>
Stephen<br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
---------------------------------------------------<br>
PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a><br>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail
settings:<br>
<a href="https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>---------------------------------------------------
PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
<a href="https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
---------------------------------------------------<br>
PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a><br>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:<br>
<a href="https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
---------------------------------------------------<br>
PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a><br>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:<br>
<a href="https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></blockquote></div>
---------------------------------------------------<br>
PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a><br>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:<br>
<a href="https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></blockquote></div>
---------------------------------------------------<br>
PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a><br>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:<br>
<a href="https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.<br><br>Stephen<br><br></div>
---------------------------------------------------<br>
PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a><br>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:<br>
<a href="https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></blockquote></div>