<div dir="ltr"><div>I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on the roads your neighborhood comes back to. Probably something in the telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is. Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why you're stuck at 12mbps.</div><div><br></div><div>If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither will happen likely. <br></div><div><br></div><div>The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL itself is stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits. Combining more physical channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were available, and telcos wanted to support it. Someone would need to make the modem too. Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or slices or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32 channels for multi-gig capabilities. Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit ethernet. <br></div><div><br></div><div>AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been imho. Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13 channels on one, and 13 channels on another. First I looked at it, and was confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the original @home cable isp company then supporting AT&T cable modems! The images were even snowy, the service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't) improve. When I asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me, so I had to get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to AT&T.</div><div><br></div><div>I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't figure out even coax. My experience supporting their customers for Cable Modem data in '99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better, as if the cable plant to your house was broke, it tended to just stay broke despite our rolling their techs to fix it. Then they'd get angry at us for doing so and tell us to stop rolling so many trucks to fix things.</div><div><br></div><div>Sigh.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox actually had their shit (relatively) together, this was an inconceivable atrocity but exactly what I'd expect of AT&T. Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the media cartels now really) owning the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll never, ever, get better either. Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer rights weren't really needed after all!<br></div><div><br></div><div>-mb</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here AT&T has to bond 2 pairs so I
can get 25 Mbps. At least it's not comcast. I wonder how many
pairs they could bond. Is there a technical limit or is it just a
matter of how many they want to bond? As more people abandon
landlines, that leaves more capacity for AT&T to bond multiple
pairs for internet customers.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via
PLUG-discuss wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So I went through this moving from Cox to CenturyLink, and
pretty much as described, fairly painless.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><tldr><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new service a
few years ago, and we first hit the outside where CL ran their
cabling in. It was an ancient telephony distribution from the
90's, and I've never had a land-line in my house since owning
it in 2002. My house built in 95 at least used cat5 or like,
so I have 4 pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need was just
fine for bonded DSL He ripped out the old block, removing the
house cabling but the one, and isolated the particular line we
needed to my office where the modem lives, added an approved
jack, done. Bonded dsl is 2x 2-wire channels, and they
essentially load-balance 75+75mbps channels. I have tested
this to n-by gigabit upstreams.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so telcos
built on this 100 years ago are a bit assed-out on passable
high-frequency modulation schemas in use for data and other
things to move beyond where they're at. DSL makes up for
this, particularly when double up on wires it gets better, but
still unshielded and prone to breakdown. Problem is mostly it
isn't shielded, thus capable of very high frequency modulation
ala Cable/DOCSIS, so it will never go much further than it has
today whereas Cable scales to gigabits with channelization and
QAM modulation at 32bit rates.</div>
<br>
<div>VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per channel, and 2x
of these get you to around CL's bonded DSL limits. This also
includes your distance limitations to your local DSLAM, or
regional router that terminates your data that degrades this
eventually further you are from it, so it's a bit tricky.
It's been stuck here for years, and pretty much at life end.
This is why my cousin living half a mile from me can only get
75mbps from CL and I can with bonded @150mbps here. Old crap
network there.<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you whatever to
~100GbE, but depends on how your provider does low-rate
Passive Optical Networking (PON) today for residential
fiber. Not quite the same as a business data network, but
any fiber is better than copper networks.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is fiber vs.
copper in new builds. I like my 25yr old house still, so no
fiber for me ever. Unless I street cut my block for fiber
myself, which I've considered, just need to get my neighbors
to buy into me as their new gigabit isp. ;)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM
Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Ok. I won't complain if I have to go out and buy a 4
conductor phone cord.<br>
</p>
<div>On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">My understanding of this is that they
will activate the second pair that is commonly used in
the RJ-43 port in your wall. This will allow 2 lines
active to the device.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Changes inside might need to happen if
your residence does not have 4 wire (2 line)
compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1 pair)</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at
9:10 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <<a href="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Where I live, I get
AT&T for my DSL service. I've signed up for an <br>
upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25. I finally got someone
there who would tell <br>
me why a technician visit is required for the upgrade.
They're bonding 2 <br>
pairs to supply the faster speed here. I've read up
online about DSL <br>
bonding. I understand that one pair will carry some
of the data, and <br>
the other pair will carry some. But one thing I
didn't find out was <br>
whether or not anything will change between the wall
jack and the <br>
modem. Is everything done outside or do they have to
come inside? I <br>
currently have a 2 conductor cord connecting my modem
to the wall jack. <br>
Will that have to be replaced with a 4 conductor
cord? Do they install <br>
an extra box outside or inside? I guess all will be
answered on the <br>
18th when the guy is scheduled to be here. I'm
really curious how this <br>
works.<br>
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<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm
clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back
to sleep after you hit the snooze button.<br>
<br>
Stephen<br>
<br>
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