<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Stephen pre 2015 there were avenues in place where you can appeal to if you feel ISPs are screwing you. I think AT&T at the time tried screw over FaceTime users they all complained and pressured them to back off. There was no need for a massive overhaul in how the internet was managed. <br><br><div id="AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Nov 25, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Partington <<a href="mailto:cryptworks@gmail.com">cryptworks@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="auto">Paying for more is fine. But when they can choke down the pipe artificially just to put you in a position to now need to pay for the premium service. So now you ha e to pay more just to get access. </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 25, 2017 4:03 PM, "Herminio Hernandez Jr." <<a href="mailto:herminio.hernandezjr@gmail.com">herminio.hernandezjr@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Brian,<div><br></div><div>This is why allowing ISPs to sell fast lanes and even tiered services would not be the end of the world. There a ton of people who do not use streaming services that would like to opt in to a service that was cheaper but throttled streaming services and there people who would be happy to pay more to have better streaming services. In the end more options will benefit consumers. <br><br><div id="m_5531985480665019146AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Nov 25, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Brian Cluff <<a href="mailto:brian@snaptek.com" target="_blank">brian@snaptek.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
Here's the real problem with that. I already pay a ton of money so
that I can stream video well. Most people could get away with a
much slower, and cheaper, Internet pipe if it wasn't for stuff like
streaming services.<br>
<br>
We used at all pay around $15 to $20 per month for an Internet
connection 15 years ago and it was fine. Now we all regularly pay
around $100 give or take for a faster connection so that our netflix
comes over at decent quality.... Ultimately Netflix doesn't cost $8
a month, it cost $108 dollars a month, it just so happens that the
connection that gives us Netflix also gives us some other useful
services. <br>
<br>
Now the network providers that are getting the lions share of the
money so that we can get these streaming services want a piece of
the pie of every service that has managed to be successful on the
Internet... From services I might add that make the network
providers service worth getting in the first place. The network
providers play it like we would all have these expensive connections
no matter what and that all the services that make their network
connect worth having in the first place is a drain on their service
that would be better off without netflix, hulu, youtube, facebook...
etc...etc... In my view it's the other way around and they should
be hoping and praying that those services don't figure out how to
cut them out of the picture... something that I'll bet they figure
out how to do if it's suddenly a lot more expensive to be in
business because of the current way they do things.<br>
<br>
For a lot of people, if they weren't getting netflix they could
quite likely get away with no Internet connection at all, or one
that cost less than $20 a month so that they could check their
email.<br>
<br>
And the answer to who is going to pay for it is, the end user aka
you and me. Last I checked content providers and ISPs don't print
money, so they have no choice but to pass the costs onto the end
user.<br>
<br>
Brian Cluff<br>
<br>
<div class="m_5531985480665019146moz-cite-prefix">On 11/25/2017 02:45 PM, Eric Oyen
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">well,
considering that the top multinational multimedia cartels own 90%
of the news information outlets these days, that situation is
already happening. what we need is a specified statement like
this:
<div>all internet services providers are required to allow
competing content to cross to the end user without censorship
(that is, they cannot block it). However, they might be allowed
to charge a "reasonable fee" to allow it through. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>now, the question becomes, who bears the cost of that fee?
the content provider, the ISP or the end user? and yes, double
dipping would definitely not be allowed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>now, the old tape cassette fee model worked good for years.
the content providers got a small percentage on each cassette
sold and users got to tape their favorite songs. why not the
same thing here: charge a small percentage (like 1%) to the end
user on a monthly basis to be paid into a general fund for all
content providers? that 1% is small considering individual
users, but adds up fast when you consider the number of
customers each ISP/broadband provider has. in my case, that
would be about 80 cents on my cable bill. doesn't seem like a
lot, doesn't it?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-eric</div>
<div>from the central offices of the Technomage Guild, Think tank
operations Dept.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Nov 25, 2017, at 9:29 AM, Michael Butash wrote:</div>
<br class="m_5531985480665019146Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Most network devices these days, including
wireless, firewalls, as well as you standard routers and
switches tend to do layer 4 and up application inspection,
primarily for creating policies like "limit
youtube|netflix to 1mbps", "block peer to peer traffic",
and "limit google to safe search only" that muck with your
content when at work, school, anywhere you have an network
admin like Herminio or I trying to keep users from doing
things to break the network, or at least them all at once
doing so.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Early on, Netflix and Youtube grew to be behemoth
network hogs for providers, so rather than let storming
elephants trample the village, they would "queue" that
traffic so it wouldn't overrun more important things,
like normal web browsing and more perceptible use cases
(still likely do). As Stephen said, they eventually got
smarter, or Netflix did, to peer directly with the mega
providers, and put local content distribution nodes
directly into them on 100gb switches so they didn't have
to slaughter your traffic (and take the bad press
eventually in being the internet cop ala comcast).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is this really what the net neutrality debate is
about anymore? No, politicians don't care about
internet speeds, it's really about media consolidation
occurring that you will be pretty much left with att,
comcast, and news corp for all television, internet,
phone, and news in general. What could go wrong, other
than enabling maniacal billionaires to buy their way
into the white house.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-mb</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 1:16 PM,
Herminio Hernandez Jr. <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:herminio.hernandezjr@gmail.com" target="_blank">herminio.hernandezjr@gmail.<wbr>com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">They are very related Network QoS
exists because there are limits in how much
networking gear transmits packets and frames. There
is a lot more to it than just writing the policy.
There is a cost to engineer that out. <br>
<br>
<div id="m_5531985480665019146m_5971136954015267172AppleMailSignature">Sent
from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Nov 24, 2017, at 12:59 PM, Stephen Partington
<<a href="mailto:cryptworks@gmail.com" target="_blank">cryptworks@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="auto">It is not that simple in my
mind. Network QoS is very different then the
possibility of the customers pay extra for
additional services.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Besides Netflix has cache
devices that can and are frequently in local
is Datacenters to alleviate latency and Bw
issues. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">And given the current fcc
chairs attitude I am really skeptical. </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 24, 2017 12:31
PM, "Herminio Hernandez, Jr." <<a href="mailto:herminio.hernandezjr@gmail.com" target="_blank">herminio.hernandezjr@gmail.co<wbr>m</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">I will start with some
thoughts on why I find the NN debate
troubling. First there is a technical
misunderstanding. NN is built on the
idea that ISPs should treat all traffic
equally. This concept is simply
unrealistic. Bandwidth is a limited
resource there is only so much data that
a Ethernet port can transmit and
receive. Also things like MTU size,
latency, jitter all impact the reliable
transmission of data which bring me to
my other point. Not all traffic is the
same. There are night and day
differences between TCP and UDP traffic.
For example UDP (which is what most
voice and video is) is faster than TCP.
The drawback to this is that UDP does
not have the recovery features that TCP
has in case of packet loss (ie sequence
number and acknowledgment packets).
There UDP applications are more prone to
suffer when latency is high or links get
saturated. To overcome this network
engineer implement prioritization and
traffic shaping to ensure these services
are not impacted.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As more content is consumed such as
4K video on the internet, the need for
traffic shaping will only increase.
Netflix already has the ability to
push 100Gbps from their servers. That
is a ton of data that needs to be
prioritized by ISPs. This is not free
there are serious costs involved in
man hours and infrastructure. Someone
needs to bear that cost. This is why I
am not opposed to fast lanes. If
Netflix is going to have ISPs ensure
all of the massive amounts to data are
push is delivered efficiently, then
the ISPs should be free to charge a
premium for this service. Netflix does
not want to bear this cost, hense
their support for Net Neutrality. They
want the ISPs to bear the cost, but
then result of that is we bear the
cost via data caps. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When you strip away all the slogans
it all comes down to money and
control. Data will be traffic shaped
it is just who decides how unelected
government bureaucrats pushing some
public policy or market forces.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Something else to consider a lot
not all but a lot of the very same
people who cry that the end of Net
Neutrality will be end of free speech
(no more free and open internet) have
no issue saying Twiiter, Facebook, and
Google (since they are 'private
companies') have the right demonetize,
obscure, or even ban individuals who
express ideas that other deem
"offensive". How is that promoting a
"Free and Open Internet"?</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 24,
2017 at 10:24 AM, Eric Oyen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eric.oyen@icloud.com" target="_blank">eric.oyen@icloud.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">well, as
someone else suggested, a new
thread.<br>
<br>
so, shall we start the discussion?<br>
<br>
ok, as mentioned, bandwidth is a
limited resource. the question is
How limited?<br>
<br>
Then there is the question: can an
ISP curtail certain types of traffic
(null route it, delay it, other
bandwidth shaping routines)? How far
can they go?<br>
<br>
What really is net neutrality?<br>
<br>
lastly, what part does the FCC play,
or should they?<br>
<br>
so, any thoughts on the above
questions?<br>
<br>
-eric<br>
from the central offices of the
Technomage Guild, you got questions,
we got answers Dept.<br>
<br>
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