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<p>I'm enjoying conversing with you, but we are getting waaaaaay off
topic for PLUG, unless we've been moved to an Ideology Room or
some such. :-)</p>
<p>At least your method seems completely voluntary; it seems that
you're not claiming a Philsopher-King pedestal from which to begin
controlling other people. You'll win the argument or you won't.
There is no other fair way.</p>
<p>There is no "good ethics" which has ever, or will ever, control
people through a Nietzschean will to <i>political </i>power.
Assuming that's what you meant to imply. Forced subjugation is
evil that cancels any good that might exist in the ideology that
drives the subjugation (usually there's no good in it at all, else
its proponents would rely on persuasion rather than force).</p>
<p>When I have my own router again (budget!), I'll happily run it
open for the reasons I've already stated, but a thieving neighbor
like yours would sorely tempt me to secure it. You mentioned MAC
address "filtering". You lost me on that. I'm a power-user, not a
network expert. If you meant that you block your neighbor based on
his MAC address, I'd love to know how, in case the time comes that
I need to do that.</p>
<p>I mentioned escapist as an adjective, not as a title. But
anything like Turner Diaries won't interest me. I'm a hater of
collectivism, and racism is as collectivist as it gets. But as to
Spook types, I've written for an "extremist" publication (back
when it was a Constitutionalist thing) that better have gotten me
onto a few watch-lists, or I will be sorely disappointed. I want
statists - forced subjugationists - to know that I'm out here
hating them.</p>
<p>It's almost exclusively the American Left that is threatening and
committing violence over ideological and factual disagreements.
(Maybe we should feel lucky that it's not the islamists.) Every
day I see examples of it - way too much of the LGBT "community"
are far-Left. But not all of us. Certainly not all.</p>
<p>Yes, we have to be better than that. As individuals, some of us
can. As a species average: no. Never have, never will. I wish it
was otherwise. :-( :-(<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/25/2017 11:45 PM, Eric Oyen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CCD3C6B6-B3CE-4BEC-9614-05DC5A4945F8@icloud.com"
type="cite">well, even the blind have their darker sides. Also war
driving can be a useful tool for discovering unsecured wifi
devices. I have educated more than one neighbor around here on the
virtues of proper security awareness. btw, the one neighbor who
was using my connection without permission had already run afoul
of the copyright police before, so he tried to use everyone else's
connections around here. I have since talked with all neighbors
around him and gotten them to lock down their routers. I can just
imagine him sitting there seething trying to figure out how
everyone around him became so secure all of the sudden.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>btw, I am also publishing a little how to in the local
neighborhood newsletter here for all those who use fat pipe
internet services (cox, DSL, DSS, Dish, etc.) and putting
together a tutorial on how to lock down and limit access to a
router. This got included in the last publication of the SPARC
news letter in both English and SPanish The first of these was
called "setting your router password and disabling remote
access". I also included my email for those who have model
specific questions. So, isn't it a wonder that said email box
had a lot of responses in it with questions on how to do a great
many things. Most of them start with the question: how do I find
the ip address for my router? It's a basic question that a lot
of people never think to ask until they are required to.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is interesting that you mention "the escapist". In a lot
of ways, its a version of the "turner diaries". Some lessons to
be learned from that reading as well. And now, I will just bet
that the FBI will be looking at me because of the mention of
just 1 title. ah well, I am well read. :)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>anyway, there are going to always be those in any community
who will seek to control others through their will to power.
Depending on their ethics, this could be a good thing, or a very
bad thing. Right now, there is a lot of the latter going on here
in the general public these days (what with people shouting down
others or threatening violence because they don't agree with
their politics). we have to be better than that.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-eric</div>
<div>from the central office of the Technomage Guild, rare books
Dept.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Mar 25, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Vara La Fey wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Ok, not a big deal. I won't worry about typing
emoticons and such, since your reader has prolly handled
them since the alpha version. I'm just always impressed
by how well blind people can navigate, since we are
highly visual creatures building highly visual cultures.
But I know very little about the actual methods.</p>
<p>There will always be exploiters, even blind wardrivers
- and I'm not sure if I'm happy about <i>that </i>kind
of equal accessibility. :-P But the existence of
exploiters doesn't mean society needs to remove every
exploitable item.</p>
<p>And if you had implemented only the security proposed
in Victor's "educational" nanny system, how would that
have stopped your neighbor from hacking your router? How
much "educational" material, to prevent how many types
of exploit, is enough?</p>
<p>I'd love to see a non-intrusive education program made
easily available.</p>
<p>Or a security-checking app that fine-tooths the user's
system and covers the basics in a wider scope than
malware-stompers and such currently do. Presumably
they're out there, but I haven't ever actually noticed
one - or looked for one. All I've ever seen (other than
a few specifics I've researched) is piecemeal stuff here
and there: WinDOS "PC issues" alerts, the usual
stompers, the usual setup prompts, the usual "important"
updates (which often are more trouble than worth and get
rolled back). I've noticed nothing coherent and
integrated.<br>
</p>
<p>Either way, I'm always going to call out people who
self-righteously think they're superior enough take up
my time lecturing me about my actions for my own alleged
"good". Always. If the Steve Litt types get offended,
I'm ok with that.</p>
<p>Bova is a name I haven't encountered in a while. Every
now and then I could stand to read some good escapist
(semi-?) libertarian fiction.<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/24/2017 2:29 PM, Eric
Oyen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:5396D655-3FF3-477F-B5FA-F0105DF44CC7@icloud.com"
type="cite">totally blind here.
<div>I use a screen reader, and a braille device. I
still run into problems with sites that just aren't
usable with either (and sometimes I am even forced to
go to windows just to use a browser I can't use on
this mac). as for feeling sorry, don't. I don't make a
big deal of it and neither should you.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>btw, getting back on subject here, I recently had a
run-in with my ISP (cox) when they sent me a nasty
note claiming I was sharing infringing content. I
tracked it down to the router (which had apparently
been hacked). Stupid little Linksys device didn't have
very good security on it. So, I burned in a dd-wrt
image, changed a lot of settings and now I don't have
that neighbor using my connection for his bit torrent
activities. btw, I found the exploit that said
neighbor used over on wikileaks vault7 page. Right
now, I am testing the device with a linux laptop using
reaver and john the ripper (and pwgen to create the
rainbow file). So far, it has taken a better part of 2
days and it still hasn't guessed the passphrase. One
of the first things I did after replacing the system
image on the router was to turn off the PIN for the
device. WIth that on, Reaver was able to take just 5
minutes to break the connection and gain entrance.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>so, if I can do this here at home, its a sure bet
that some of these places with a wide open router are
getting a lot of illicit traffic (and its also a sure
bet that someone is pulling a man-in-the-middle attack
to get info they shouldn't have). so, believe me, if
it can happen to me (an experienced IT person), it can
happen to anyone who doesn't take the time to secure
their devices.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>btw, to give you an idea of how strong my
passphrase is, its a minimum of 200 characters
(including spaces), run through a jive converter and
then converted to 1337 using one of the known
converter websites. so, good luck guessing it. :) I
also use mac address filtering here and even have my
SSID broadcast hidden.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>btw, back on the subject of accessibility for a
moment… the guys who developed Reaver got contacted by
me several years back. I asked them if it could be
possible to include a couple of packages on their live
CD (specifically ORCA and an audio driver). They did
and the tool is completely accessible for the blind
war driver. :) so, it doesn't hurt to ask. :)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-eric</div>
<div>from the central office of the Technomage Guild,
network breakages R us Dept.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Mar 23, 2017, at 9:45 PM, Vara La Fey wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Oooh, now your sig places you with the Brave
New World dept. Heh. Perfect timing.</p>
<p>I'd love to de-Google, but as with Fakebook,
that's where the party is. Even worse is that
Google's products are pretty good.</p>
<p>Speaking of FB, they keep hitting me with a
security verification when I go to my page to
login. Fortunately my Firefox gives me its
usual login screen and easily bypasses that.</p>
<p>I'm sorry to hear that you're blind, but I'm
also curious how you navigate so well. I've
never heard of a captcha solver, but now and
then I'll click the gimme-a-new-one button or
the say-it-aloud button. And my vision isn't
good, but not blind. Can you see the captchas
at all, or do you navigate by text-to-speech
and a braille keyboard?<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/23/2017 8:34
PM, Eric Oyen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:C40A0AAF-3B10-470D-9304-E49047DFCD06@icloud.com"
type="cite">yes, they are. I even have a
captcha solver tool here, but it's only
effective 50% of the time. Google is, by far,
the worst offender of the lot when it comes to
this type of http interception and
presentation scheme.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-eric</div>
<div>from the central office of the Technomage
Guild, Brave new world Dept.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Mar 23, 2017, at 6:07 PM, Vara La
Fey wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Mmm hmm. But at least nobody will
know that you're streaming the
footage of his arrival.</p>
<p>Are these captcha-blockings you
mention the same as when Google and
others intercept you when they
detect that you're not trying to
login from the same IP as your
previous logons? Back when I last
used Tor to actually login to an
account, sites I used weren't doing
that kind of interception. I've
merely browsed with Tor since.<br>
</p>
<p>- Vara<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
3/23/2017 5:13 PM, Eric Oyen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4E03AC1C-3C30-4297-80DF-722CDDD12C89@icloud.com"
type="cite">That is the other
problem I have seen with TOR. Any
slower and the second coming of
christ will arrive sooner. :)
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-eric</div>
<div>from the central office of the
Technomage Guild, Editors choice
dept.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Mar 23, 2017, at 4:02
PM, Vara La Fey wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<meta content="text/html;
charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<p>I'm all for education.
I'm a trans-girl, and
believe me, I would like
to educate people a little
about us. But I wouldn't
take it upon myself to
intrude on their time for
a 3 Minute Love unless
they're trying to hurt
someone.<br>
</p>
<p>I don't want people
semi-forcing content on
me. And the desired
"campaign" is exactly
that. It's sad that
everyone here who comments
keeps asserting the
"safety" benefits, without
a care in the world about
the sheer intrusiveness
and the obvious
socio-political abuses of
systems like that becoming
commonplace. Which
hopefully they won't.</p>
<p>I don't need a VPN and
have never set one up, but
I don't doubt the security
of a VPN/Tor combination.
And if you are really
afraid of snoops and
spooks, encrypt all your
text traffic with large
PGP keys. But I rarely use
Tor because it's horribly
slow, and PGP because it's
an extra few steps. But
they are always there for
those special occasions.
:-)</p>
<p>- Vara<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On
3/23/2017 3:16 PM, Eric
Oyen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4EF5D72B-DFFB-4ECA-BDB1-A5CB66859068@icloud.com"
type="cite">well, if you
don't want to deal with
bad certs, redirected
https,etc, you can either
not use that
router/service or get a
VPN and secure all your
traffic. And yes, I will
not use paywall systems of
any kind, they have no
business knowing what my
credentials are.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Lastly, if I want
real security, a combo
of VPN and TOR cannot be
beat. I use private
internet access for the
VPN and also have a TOR
node setup here. the TOR
node will not be
connected until after
the VPN comes up. why
let my ISP know I am
running a TOR node here
at home? The only issue
I have with this is that
my search engine queries
don't work right
(mostly, I get blocked
and asked to solve a
captcha, which is not
doable for the blind
most times)</div>
<div>Anyway, do what you
must, but education
should be the first item
on the list when it
comes to net security.</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-eric</div>
<div>from the central
office of the
Technomage Guild,
Security applications
dept.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Mar 23,
2017, at 2:50 PM,
Vara La Fey wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote
type="cite">
<meta
content="text/html;
charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
First you were
talking about
open hotspots.
Then you were
talking about
https. Now you
are talking
about ssl.<br>
<br>
But all the
while you're
still just
talking about
monitoring and
restricting the
activity of 3rd
parties on 4th
party systems.
And it seems
really important
to you for some
reason.<br>
<br>
Please, waste
time and effort
and money
patenting your <i>spyware
</i>chaperone
system that
monitors web
activity with
the intent of <i>creating
consequences </i>for
activity which
you - or your
intended
customer -
opines is
"invalid". I
doubt very many
people will buy
into it because
there is no
upside for them.
Even when they
alter it to fit
their own
agenda, they
just anger their
customers who
can click OK for
EULAs and enter
logins, but
cannot bypass
your 3 Minute
Hate.<br>
<br>
If it can detect
an "invalid"
certificate,
then by changing
a couple code
lines (if even),
it can detect
anything else
about an
attempted site
visit. Of course
this ability is
ancient now, but
less evil
implementations
of it merely
censor by
blocking, which
is bad enough.
Yours is
"educational" -
and it's
interesting that
<i>you </i>put
the quotes
around that word
yourself - for
the purpose of
taking up other
people's time
with propaganda.
<p>If it became
common, it
would become a
mandatory
advertising
medium anytime
anyone clicked
on a
competitor's
site, or a
site with bad
reviews for
your customer.
If it became
law, it would
become a
mandatory
propaganda
delivery
system anytime
anyone clicked
on a site
containing any
kind of
dissenting
viewpoint.</p>
<p>Are you
hoping to
create one of
those
conditions? If
so, which?<br>
</p>
<p>Because this
sure looks
like more than
just wanting
to manipulate
lesser people
into a system
designed to
reinforce your
wishful
feelings of
superiority.
There has to
be a more
compelling
reason that
you're this
overly
concerned
about what 3rd
parties do on
4th party
systems.<br>
</p>
<p>Which, btw,
brings up the
fact that your
system is not
equivalent to
EULAs or
logins or pay
systems,
because the
connection
provider has
the right to
set conditions
for using
their
connection.
Your spyware
idea is to
harass people
who are using
<i>other
people's</i>
connections.</p>
<p>I'm not an
expert on web
connection
technology per
se, but it
seems that Tor
would nicely
wire around
all SSL issues
after the
initial
connection to
the
now-restricted
hotspot. You
certainly make
a great case
for using it,
even if just
on general
principle. So
what would you
do about that?</p>
<p>I don't think
your
grandmother
wants you
monitoring her
activity. I
don't think <i>anyone
</i>wants you
monitoring
their
activity. But
you seem to
want to do it
anyway. And no
one but me is
saying boo to
you. :-(</p>
<p>As to the
trivia: I
personally
have never had
trouble from
visiting a
site with an
"invalid
certificate"
of any kind,
because that
stuff simply
isn't 100%
maintained.
Obviously I am
careful where
I go and what
I click and
download
anyway. I do
not so easily
ignore "known
malware site"
warnings, and
if in doubt
about a site I
reflexively
check the web
address. <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://MyBank.Phishing.com/">MyBank.Phishing.com</a> and <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://Phishing.com/MyBank">Phishing.com/MyBank</a> do not get
clicks from
me. But that's
all beside the
point.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div
class="moz-cite-prefix">On
3/20/2017 9:57
PM, Brien
Dieterle
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAA_Swr=tOvKCDNfi=Cit9ccggBX=joHuFZShLFn=hm7ik+X67Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div
dir="auto">
<div>
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
Mar 20, 2017
3:36 PM, "Vara
La Fey" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:varalafey@gmail.com">varalafey@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br
type="attribution">
<blockquote
class="quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<p>OMG!!</p>
<p>First of
all, you'd be
mis-educating
them if
telling them
that
certificate
"validity" has
any real
meaning. (But
now you're
talking about
http.)<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
dir="auto">I
mean validity
as in trusted
roots that
have been
shipped with
your OS or
browser.
Surely you
don't mean
these are
meaningless.
AFAIK they are
very reliable
as long as you
never accept
bogus certs.
If you accept
bogus certs
"all the
time", I
really hope
you know what
you're doing.
Pretty much
any important
site should
have working
SSL.</div>
<div
dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div
dir="auto">There
is a reason
why all the
browsers freak
out when you
get a bad
cert, but
users still
click "add
exception".
My captive
education
portal would
give real
consequence to
this with the
3 minute power
point
slideshow and
mandatory
quiz. I
wonder if this
is already
patented. . .</div>
<div
dir="auto">
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote
class="quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<div> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p>Second, why
do you think
you have any
right to put
speed bumps in
the way of
people who are
doing nothing
to you? <br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
dir="auto">Plenty
of businesses
do this
already for
captive
portals and
forcing users
to log in,
pay, or accept
an EULA. They
are already
tampering with
your SSL
connection in
order to
redirect you
to the portal.
I'm just
suggesting to
use this
technology for
"educational"
purposes.</div>
<div
dir="auto">
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote
class="quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<div> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p>Third, if
your
grandmother
needs internet
"safety"
education,
just educate
her, or refuse
to keep fixing
the problems
she encounters
in her
ignorance - if
she really is
all that
ignorant. I
hope you
wouldn't
install a
browser
re-direct
without her
consent,
because then
you'd be just
any other
malware
propagator
with just any
other
self-righteous
rationalization.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
dir="auto">Well,
I'm lazy. I'd
much rather
have an
ongoing
passive
education
program for
anyone that
uses that
router. Maybe
only 1 in 1000
requests
trigger the
"test", or
once a month
per mac
address
maybe. If
grandma fails
the test I can
get an email
so I can call
her up and
gently
chastise her.
"Grandmaaaa,
did you accept
a bogus SSL
certificate
again? Hmmm?"</div>
<div
dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div
dir="auto">As
far as consent
goes, I'm only
talking about
routers you
own or have
permission to
modify. That
should go
without
saying.</div>
<div
dir="auto">
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote
class="quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<div> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p>Fourth, if
<i>you </i>need
educational
"speed bumps"
on <i>your </i>router,
<i>you </i>are
free to have
them. One of
the great
things about
freedom - from
government or
from meddling
busybodies -
is that <i>you
</i>get to be
free too.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
dir="auto">My
post is in the
context of
businesses or
individuals
that provide
Internet to
the public.
Presumably
businesses and
individuals
have the
freedom to do
this kind of
SSL
interception,
since they've
already been
doing it for
years without
any
repercussions.
Personally I'm
disturbed that
businesses
will try to
get me to
accept their
SSL cert for
their Wi-Fi
portal, but I
know the
technology
leaves little
choice. One
trick is to
ignore the
cert and try
again with a
non SSL
address.</div>
<div
dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div
dir="auto"><span
style="font-family:sans-serif">It is pretty ironic that the first thing
these captive
portals ask
users to do is
blindly accept
a bogus SSL
cert. It is
really just a
sad state of
affairs that
we are
literally
training
people to
accept bad SSL
certificates.</span><br>
</div>
<div
dir="auto">
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote
class="quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<p>For years
my Firefox has
had an option
to "always use
HTTPS", and
I'm sure all
other modern
browsers do as
well. Plus, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://Mozilla.org/">Mozilla.org</a> has a
free plugin -
I think it's
from <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://EFF.org/">EFF.org</a> - called "HTTPS Everywhere". It's all
very easy to
use, and will
be almost
entirely
transparent to
Grandma.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
dir="auto">This
won't do
anything to
protect
you/grandma
from bogus ssl
certs.
Imagine
connecting to
a bad AP at
Starbucks that
is proxying
all your SSL
connections.
Your only
defense is
trusted roots
and knowing
not to accept
bogus SSL
certs. If
only we had a
captive
router-based
SSL education
program... ;)</div>
<div
dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div
dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div
dir="auto">
<div
class="gmail_extra">
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote
class="quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<div> <br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div
class="elided-text">
<br>
<div
class="m_3664614906642159284moz-cite-prefix">On
3/20/2017 3:14
PM, Brien
Dieterle
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">A
system like I
described
would just be
an
"educational
tool" to
encourage
people to use
HTTPS
(properly).
It wouldn't
stop you from
accepting
bogus
certificates--
just a speed
bump. Now
that I've
thought about
it I'd really
like to
install
something like
this on my
grandparent's
router. . .
heck, my own
router. . .<br>
<div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
Mon, Mar 20,
2017 at 2:50
PM, Vara La
Fey <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:varalafey@gmail.com" target="_blank">varalafey@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<p>Oh HELL
no!! What kind
of
hall-monitor
nanny
mentality do
you want
people to
adopt??</p>
<p>I accept
"bogus"
certificates
all the time
because the
whole idea of
certificates
is crap in the
first place -
they are NOT
maintained -
and years ago
I got tired of
that procedure
warning me
about
"invalid"
certificates
for sites that
were perfectly
valid.</p>
<p>I've never
had a problem.
Of course I'm
also careful
where I go,
certificate or
not.</p>
<span
class="m_3664614906642159284HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888">
<p>- Vara<br>
</p>
</font></span>
<div>
<div
class="m_3664614906642159284h5">
<br>
<div
class="m_3664614906642159284m_6778587083276554415moz-cite-prefix">On
3/20/2017 2:12
PM, Brien
Dieterle
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Maybe
every
commercial
router should
do SSL
interception
by default.
If a user
accepts a
bogus
certificate
they are taken
to a page that
thoroughly
scolds them
and informs
them about the
huge mistake
they made,
forces them to
read a few
slides and
take a quiz on
network safety
before
allowing them
on the
Internet.
Maybe do the
same for
non-ssl HTTP
traffic, etc..
. <br>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
Mon, Mar 20,
2017 at 1:55
PM, Matt
Graham <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mhgraham@crow202.org"
target="_blank">mhgraham@crow202.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Mon, Mar
20, 2017 at
12:29 PM,
Victor Odhner
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vodhner@cox.net" target="_blank">vodhner@cox.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I’m really
annoyed that
so many
companies
offer open
WIFI when it
would be<br>
so easy to
secure those
hot spots.
Restaurants,
hotels, and
the waiting<br>
rooms of auto
dealerships
are almost
100% open.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</span> [snip]<span><br>
On 2017-03-20
13:20, Stephen
Partington
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
This is
usually done
as a means to
be easy for
their
customers.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> Pretty
much this.
Convenience is
more valuable
than security
in most
people's
minds.<span><br>
<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
they’d be
happy to do
the right
thing if we
could explain
it to the
right people.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> I'm
not sure this
would happen.
Setting up
passwords and
then
distributing
those
passwords has
a non-zero
cost and
offers zero
visible
benefits for
most of the
people who are
using the
wireless
networks.[0]
And as another
poster said,
what about
football/baseball
stadiums?
Distributing
passwords to
tens of
thousands of
people is sort
of difficult.
"Just watching
the game" is
not an option;
people want to
FaceTweet
pictures of
themselves at
the game.<br>
<br>
OTOH, the last
time I looked
at the access
points visible
from my living
room, almost
all of them
had some sort
of access
control
enabled. Maybe
there's a
social
convention
forming that
"my access
point" ~= "my
back yard" and
"open access
point" ~= "a
public park"?<br>
<br>
[0] Having a
more educated
user
population
would make the
benefits more
visible, but
it's very
difficult to
make people
care about
these things.<span
class="m_3664614906642159284m_6778587083276554415HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Crow202 Blog:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://crow202.org/wordpress" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://crow202.org/wordpress</a><br>
There is no
Darkness in
Eternity<br>
But only Light
too dim for us
to see.</font></span>
<div
class="m_3664614906642159284m_6778587083276554415HOEnZb">
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