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    <p>Oooh, now your sig places you with the Brave New World dept. Heh.

      Perfect timing.</p>

    <p>I'd love to de-Google, but as with Fakebook, that's where the

      party is. Even worse is that Google's products are pretty good.</p>

    <p>Speaking of FB, they keep hitting me with a security verification

      when I go to my page to login. Fortunately my Firefox gives me its

      usual login screen and easily bypasses that.</p>

    <p>I'm sorry to hear that you're blind, but I'm also curious how you

      navigate so well. I've never heard of a captcha solver, but now

      and then I'll click the gimme-a-new-one button or the say-it-aloud

      button. And my vision isn't good, but not blind. Can you see the

      captchas at all, or do you navigate by text-to-speech and a

      braille keyboard?<br>

    </p>

    <br>

    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/23/2017 8:34 PM, Eric Oyen wrote:<br>

    </div>

    <blockquote

      cite="mid:C40A0AAF-3B10-470D-9304-E49047DFCD06@icloud.com"

      type="cite">yes, they are. I even have a captcha solver tool here,

      but it's only effective 50% of the time. Google is, by far, the

      worst offender of the lot when it comes to this type of http

      interception and presentation scheme.

      <div><br>

      </div>

      <div>-eric</div>

      <div>from the central office of the Technomage Guild, Brave new

        world Dept.</div>

      <div><br>

        <div>

          <div>On Mar 23, 2017, at 6:07 PM, Vara La Fey wrote:</div>

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              <p>Mmm hmm. But at least nobody will know that you're

                streaming the footage of his arrival.</p>

              <p>Are these captcha-blockings you mention the same as

                when Google and others intercept you when they detect

                that you're not trying to login from the same IP as your

                previous logons? Back when I last used Tor to actually

                login to an account, sites I used weren't doing that

                kind of interception. I've merely browsed with Tor

                since.<br>

              </p>

              <p>- Vara<br>

              </p>

              <br>

              <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/23/2017 5:13 PM, Eric

                Oyen wrote:<br>

              </div>

              <blockquote

                cite="mid:4E03AC1C-3C30-4297-80DF-722CDDD12C89@icloud.com"

                type="cite">That is the other problem I have seen with

                TOR. Any slower and the second coming of christ will

                arrive sooner. :)

                <div><br>

                </div>

                <div>-eric</div>

                <div>from the central office of the Technomage Guild,

                  Editors choice dept.</div>

                <div><br>

                  <div>

                    <div>On Mar 23, 2017, at 4:02 PM, Vara La Fey wrote:</div>

                    <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

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                        <p>I'm all for education. I'm a trans-girl, and

                          believe me, I would like to educate people a

                          little about us. But I wouldn't take it upon

                          myself to intrude on their time for a 3 Minute

                          Love unless they're trying to hurt someone.<br>

                        </p>

                        <p>I don't want people semi-forcing content on

                          me. And the desired "campaign" is exactly

                          that. It's sad that everyone here who comments

                          keeps asserting the "safety" benefits, without

                          a care in the world about the sheer

                          intrusiveness and the obvious socio-political

                          abuses of systems like that becoming

                          commonplace. Which hopefully they won't.</p>

                        <p>I don't need a VPN and have never set one up,

                          but I don't doubt the security of a VPN/Tor

                          combination. And if you are really afraid of

                          snoops and spooks, encrypt all your text

                          traffic with large PGP keys. But I rarely use

                          Tor because it's horribly slow, and PGP

                          because it's an extra few steps. But they are

                          always there for those special occasions.  :-)</p>

                        <p>- Vara<br>

                        </p>

                        <br>

                        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/23/2017 3:16

                          PM, Eric Oyen wrote:<br>

                        </div>

                        <blockquote

                          cite="mid:4EF5D72B-DFFB-4ECA-BDB1-A5CB66859068@icloud.com"

                          type="cite">well, if you don't want to deal

                          with bad certs, redirected https,etc, you can

                          either not use that router/service or get a

                          VPN and secure all your traffic. And yes, I

                          will not use paywall systems of any kind, they

                          have no business knowing what my credentials

                          are.

                          <div><br>

                          </div>

                          <div>Lastly, if I want real security, a combo

                            of VPN and TOR cannot be beat. I use private

                            internet access for the VPN and also have a

                            TOR node setup here. the TOR node will not

                            be connected until after the VPN comes up.

                            why let my ISP know I am running a TOR node

                            here at home? The only issue I have with

                            this is that my search engine queries don't

                            work right (mostly, I get blocked and asked

                            to solve a captcha, which is not doable for

                            the blind most times)</div>

                          <div>Anyway, do what you must, but education

                            should be the first item on the list when it

                            comes to net security.</div>

                          <div>

                            <div><br>

                            </div>

                            <div>-eric</div>

                            <div>from the central office of the

                              Technomage Guild, Security applications

                              dept.</div>

                            <div><br>

                              <div>

                                <div>On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:50 PM, Vara

                                  La Fey wrote:</div>

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                                    First you were talking about open

                                    hotspots. Then you were talking

                                    about https. Now you are talking

                                    about ssl.<br>

                                    <br>

                                    But all the while you're still just

                                    talking about monitoring and

                                    restricting the activity of 3rd

                                    parties on 4th party systems. And it

                                    seems really important to you for

                                    some reason.<br>

                                    <br>

                                    Please, waste time and effort and

                                    money patenting your <i>spyware </i>chaperone

                                    system that monitors web activity

                                    with the intent of <i>creating

                                      consequences </i>for activity

                                    which you - or your intended

                                    customer - opines is "invalid". I

                                    doubt very many people will buy into

                                    it because there is no upside for

                                    them. Even when they alter it to fit

                                    their own agenda, they just anger

                                    their customers who can click OK for

                                    EULAs and enter logins, but cannot

                                    bypass your 3 Minute Hate.<br>

                                    <br>

                                    If it can detect an "invalid"

                                    certificate, then by changing a

                                    couple code lines (if even), it can

                                    detect anything else about an

                                    attempted site visit. Of course this

                                    ability is ancient now, but less

                                    evil implementations of it merely

                                    censor by blocking, which is bad

                                    enough. Yours is "educational" - and

                                    it's interesting that <i>you </i>put

                                    the quotes around that word yourself

                                    - for the purpose of taking up other

                                    people's time with propaganda.

                                    <p>If it became common, it would

                                      become a mandatory advertising

                                      medium anytime anyone clicked on a

                                      competitor's site, or a site with

                                      bad reviews for your customer. If

                                      it became law, it would become a

                                      mandatory propaganda delivery

                                      system anytime anyone clicked on a

                                      site containing any kind of

                                      dissenting viewpoint.</p>

                                    <p>Are you hoping to create one of

                                      those conditions? If so, which?<br>

                                    </p>

                                    <p>Because this sure looks like more

                                      than just wanting to manipulate

                                      lesser people into a system

                                      designed to reinforce your wishful

                                      feelings of superiority. There has

                                      to be a more compelling reason

                                      that you're this overly concerned

                                      about what 3rd parties do on 4th

                                      party systems.<br>

                                    </p>

                                    <p>Which, btw, brings up the fact

                                      that your system is not equivalent

                                      to EULAs or logins or pay systems,

                                      because the connection provider

                                      has the right to set conditions

                                      for using their connection. Your

                                      spyware idea is to harass people

                                      who are using <i>other people's</i>

                                      connections.</p>

                                    <p>I'm not an expert on web

                                      connection technology per se, but

                                      it seems that Tor would nicely

                                      wire around all SSL issues after

                                      the initial connection to the

                                      now-restricted hotspot. You

                                      certainly make a great case for

                                      using it, even if just on general

                                      principle. So what would you do

                                      about that?</p>

                                    <p>I don't think your grandmother

                                      wants you monitoring her activity.

                                      I don't think <i>anyone </i>wants

                                      you monitoring their activity. But

                                      you seem to want to do it anyway.

                                      And no one but me is saying boo to

                                      you.  :-(</p>

                                    <p>As to the trivia: I personally

                                      have never had trouble from

                                      visiting a site with an "invalid

                                      certificate" of any kind, because

                                      that stuff simply isn't 100%

                                      maintained. Obviously I am careful

                                      where I go and what I click and

                                      download anyway. I do not so

                                      easily ignore "known malware site"

                                      warnings, and if in doubt about a

                                      site I reflexively check the web

                                      address. <a

                                        moz-do-not-send="true"

                                        href="http://MyBank.Phishing.com/">MyBank.Phishing.com</a>

                                      and <a moz-do-not-send="true"

                                        href="http://Phishing.com/MyBank">Phishing.com/MyBank</a>

                                      do not get clicks from me. But

                                      that's all beside the point.<br>

                                    </p>

                                    <p><br>

                                    </p>

                                    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On

                                      3/20/2017 9:57 PM, Brien Dieterle

                                      wrote:<br>

                                    </div>

                                    <blockquote

cite="mid:CAA_Swr=tOvKCDNfi=Cit9ccggBX=joHuFZShLFn=hm7ik+X67Q@mail.gmail.com"

                                      type="cite">

                                      <div dir="auto">

                                        <div>

                                          <div class="gmail_extra">

                                            <div class="gmail_quote">On

                                              Mar 20, 2017 3:36 PM,

                                              "Vara La Fey" <<a

                                                moz-do-not-send="true"

                                                href="mailto:varalafey@gmail.com">varalafey@gmail.com</a>>

                                              wrote:<br

                                                type="attribution">

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                                                style="margin:0 0 0

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                                                  <p>OMG!!</p>

                                                  <p>First of all, you'd

                                                    be mis-educating

                                                    them if telling them

                                                    that certificate

                                                    "validity" has any

                                                    real meaning. (But

                                                    now you're talking

                                                    about http.)<br>

                                                  </p>

                                                </div>

                                              </blockquote>

                                            </div>

                                          </div>

                                        </div>

                                        <div dir="auto">I mean validity

                                          as in trusted roots that have

                                          been shipped with your OS or

                                          browser.  Surely you don't

                                          mean these are meaningless.

                                          AFAIK they are very reliable

                                          as long as you never accept

                                          bogus certs.  If you accept

                                          bogus certs "all the time", I

                                          really hope you know what

                                          you're doing.  Pretty much any

                                          important site should have

                                          working SSL.</div>

                                        <div dir="auto"><br>

                                        </div>

                                        <div dir="auto">There is a

                                          reason why all the browsers

                                          freak out when you get a bad

                                          cert, but users still click

                                          "add exception".  My captive

                                          education portal would give

                                          real consequence to this with

                                          the 3 minute power point

                                          slideshow and mandatory quiz. 

                                          I wonder if this is already

                                          patented. . .</div>

                                        <div dir="auto">

                                          <div class="gmail_extra">

                                            <div class="gmail_quote">

                                              <blockquote class="quote"

                                                style="margin:0 0 0

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                                                  <div> <br

                                                      class="webkit-block-placeholder">

                                                  </div>

                                                  <p>Second, why do you

                                                    think you have any

                                                    right to put speed

                                                    bumps in the way of

                                                    people who are doing

                                                    nothing to you? <br>

                                                  </p>

                                                </div>

                                              </blockquote>

                                            </div>

                                          </div>

                                        </div>

                                        <div dir="auto">Plenty of

                                          businesses do this already for

                                          captive portals and forcing

                                          users to log in, pay, or

                                          accept an EULA.  They are

                                          already tampering with your

                                          SSL connection in order to

                                          redirect you to the portal.

                                          I'm just suggesting to use

                                          this technology for

                                          "educational" purposes.</div>

                                        <div dir="auto">

                                          <div class="gmail_extra">

                                            <div class="gmail_quote">

                                              <blockquote class="quote"

                                                style="margin:0 0 0

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                                                <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                                  text="#000000">

                                                  <div> <br

                                                      class="webkit-block-placeholder">

                                                  </div>

                                                  <p>Third, if your

                                                    grandmother needs

                                                    internet "safety"

                                                    education, just

                                                    educate her, or

                                                    refuse to keep

                                                    fixing the problems

                                                    she encounters in

                                                    her ignorance - if

                                                    she really is all

                                                    that ignorant. I

                                                    hope you wouldn't

                                                    install a browser

                                                    re-direct without

                                                    her consent, because

                                                    then you'd be just

                                                    any other malware

                                                    propagator with just

                                                    any other

                                                    self-righteous

                                                    rationalization.<br>

                                                  </p>

                                                </div>

                                              </blockquote>

                                            </div>

                                          </div>

                                        </div>

                                        <div dir="auto">Well, I'm lazy. 

                                          I'd much rather have an

                                          ongoing passive education

                                          program for anyone that uses

                                          that router.  Maybe only 1 in

                                          1000 requests trigger the

                                          "test", or once a month per

                                          mac address maybe.  If grandma

                                          fails the test I can get an

                                          email so I can call her up and

                                          gently chastise her.

                                           "Grandmaaaa, did you accept a

                                          bogus SSL certificate again?

                                          Hmmm?"</div>

                                        <div dir="auto"><br>

                                        </div>

                                        <div dir="auto">As far as

                                          consent goes, I'm only talking

                                          about routers you own or have

                                          permission to modify.  That

                                          should go without saying.</div>

                                        <div dir="auto">

                                          <div class="gmail_extra">

                                            <div class="gmail_quote">

                                              <blockquote class="quote"

                                                style="margin:0 0 0

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                                                  text="#000000">

                                                  <div> <br

                                                      class="webkit-block-placeholder">

                                                  </div>

                                                  <p>Fourth, if <i>you

                                                    </i>need educational

                                                    "speed bumps" on <i>your

                                                    </i>router, <i>you

                                                    </i>are free to have

                                                    them. One of the

                                                    great things about

                                                    freedom - from

                                                    government or from

                                                    meddling busybodies

                                                    - is that <i>you </i>get

                                                    to be free too.</p>

                                                </div>

                                              </blockquote>

                                            </div>

                                          </div>

                                        </div>

                                        <div dir="auto">My post is in

                                          the context of businesses or

                                          individuals that provide

                                          Internet to the public. 

                                          Presumably businesses and

                                          individuals have the freedom

                                          to do this kind of SSL

                                          interception, since they've

                                          already been doing it for

                                          years without any

                                          repercussions.  Personally I'm

                                          disturbed that businesses will

                                          try to get me to accept their

                                          SSL cert for their Wi-Fi

                                          portal, but I know the

                                          technology leaves little

                                          choice.  One trick is to

                                          ignore the cert and try again

                                          with a non SSL address.</div>

                                        <div dir="auto"><br>

                                        </div>

                                        <div dir="auto"><span

                                            style="font-family:sans-serif">It

                                            is pretty ironic that the

                                            first thing these captive

                                            portals ask users to do is

                                            blindly accept a bogus SSL

                                            cert.  It is really just a

                                            sad state of affairs that we

                                            are literally training

                                            people to accept bad SSL

                                            certificates.</span><br>

                                        </div>

                                        <div dir="auto">

                                          <div class="gmail_extra">

                                            <div class="gmail_quote">

                                              <blockquote class="quote"

                                                style="margin:0 0 0

                                                .8ex;border-left:1px

                                                #ccc

                                                solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                                  text="#000000">

                                                  <p>For years my

                                                    Firefox has had an

                                                    option to "always

                                                    use HTTPS", and I'm

                                                    sure all other

                                                    modern browsers do

                                                    as well. Plus, <a

                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"

href="http://Mozilla.org/">Mozilla.org</a> has a free plugin - I think

                                                    it's from <a

                                                      moz-do-not-send="true"

href="http://EFF.org/">EFF.org</a> - called "HTTPS Everywhere". It's all

                                                    very easy to use,

                                                    and will be almost

                                                    entirely transparent

                                                    to Grandma.<br>

                                                  </p>

                                                </div>

                                              </blockquote>

                                            </div>

                                          </div>

                                        </div>

                                        <div dir="auto">This won't do

                                          anything to protect

                                          you/grandma from bogus ssl

                                          certs.  Imagine connecting to

                                          a bad AP at Starbucks that is

                                          proxying all your SSL

                                          connections.  Your only

                                          defense is trusted roots and

                                          knowing not to accept bogus

                                          SSL certs.  If only we had a

                                          captive router-based SSL

                                          education program... ;)</div>

                                        <div dir="auto"><br>

                                        </div>

                                        <div dir="auto"><br>

                                        </div>

                                        <div dir="auto">

                                          <div class="gmail_extra">

                                            <div class="gmail_quote">

                                              <blockquote class="quote"

                                                style="margin:0 0 0

                                                .8ex;border-left:1px

                                                #ccc

                                                solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                                  text="#000000">

                                                  <div> <br

                                                      class="webkit-block-placeholder">

                                                  </div>

                                                  <div

                                                    class="elided-text">

                                                    <br>

                                                    <div

                                                      class="m_3664614906642159284moz-cite-prefix">On

                                                      3/20/2017 3:14 PM,

                                                      Brien Dieterle

                                                      wrote:<br>

                                                    </div>

                                                    <blockquote

                                                      type="cite">

                                                      <div dir="ltr">A

                                                        system like I

                                                        described would

                                                        just be an

                                                        "educational

                                                        tool" to

                                                        encourage people

                                                        to use HTTPS

                                                        (properly).  It

                                                        wouldn't stop

                                                        you from

                                                        accepting bogus

                                                        certificates--

                                                        just a speed

                                                        bump.  Now that

                                                        I've thought

                                                        about it I'd

                                                        really like to

                                                        install

                                                        something like

                                                        this on my

                                                        grandparent's

                                                        router. . .  

                                                        heck, my own

                                                        router. . .<br>

                                                        <div>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="gmail_extra"><br>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="gmail_quote">On

                                                          Mon, Mar 20,

                                                          2017 at 2:50

                                                          PM, Vara La

                                                          Fey <span

                                                          dir="ltr"><<a

moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:varalafey@gmail.com" target="_blank">varalafey@gmail.com</a>></span>

                                                          wrote:<br>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                          <div

                                                          bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                                          text="#000000">

                                                          <p>Oh HELL

                                                          no!! What kind

                                                          of

                                                          hall-monitor

                                                          nanny

                                                          mentality do

                                                          you want

                                                          people to

                                                          adopt??</p>

                                                          <p>I accept

                                                          "bogus"

                                                          certificates

                                                          all the time

                                                          because the

                                                          whole idea of

                                                          certificates

                                                          is crap in the

                                                          first place -

                                                          they are NOT

                                                          maintained -

                                                          and years ago

                                                          I got tired of

                                                          that procedure

                                                          warning me

                                                          about

                                                          "invalid"

                                                          certificates

                                                          for sites that

                                                          were perfectly

                                                          valid.</p>

                                                          <p>I've never

                                                          had a problem.

                                                          Of course I'm

                                                          also careful

                                                          where I go,

                                                          certificate or

                                                          not.</p>

                                                          <span

                                                          class="m_3664614906642159284HOEnZb"><font

color="#888888">

                                                          <p>- Vara<br>

                                                          </p>

                                                          </font></span>

                                                          <div>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="m_3664614906642159284h5">

                                                          <br>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="m_3664614906642159284m_6778587083276554415moz-cite-prefix">On

                                                          3/20/2017 2:12

                                                          PM, Brien

                                                          Dieterle

                                                          wrote:<br>

                                                          </div>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          type="cite">

                                                          <div dir="ltr">Maybe

                                                          every

                                                          commercial

                                                          router should

                                                          do SSL

                                                          interception

                                                          by default. 

                                                          If a user

                                                          accepts a

                                                          bogus

                                                          certificate

                                                          they are taken

                                                          to a page that

                                                          thoroughly

                                                          scolds them

                                                          and informs

                                                          them about the

                                                          huge mistake

                                                          they made,

                                                          forces them to

                                                          read a few

                                                          slides and

                                                          take a quiz on

                                                          network safety

                                                          before

                                                          allowing them

                                                          on the

                                                          Internet. 

                                                          Maybe do the

                                                          same for

                                                          non-ssl HTTP

                                                          traffic, etc..

                                                          . <br>

                                                          </div>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="gmail_extra"><br>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="gmail_quote">On

                                                          Mon, Mar 20,

                                                          2017 at 1:55

                                                          PM, Matt

                                                          Graham <span

                                                          dir="ltr"><<a

moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mhgraham@crow202.org"

                                                          target="_blank">mhgraham@crow202.org</a>></span>

                                                          wrote:<br>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                          On Mon, Mar

                                                          20, 2017 at

                                                          12:29 PM,

                                                          Victor Odhner

                                                          <<a

                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"

href="mailto:vodhner@cox.net" target="_blank">vodhner@cox.net</a>>

                                                          wrote:<br>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                          I’m really

                                                          annoyed that

                                                          so many

                                                          companies

                                                          offer open

                                                          WIFI when it

                                                          would be<br>

                                                          so easy to

                                                          secure those

                                                          hot spots. 

                                                          Restaurants,

                                                          hotels, and

                                                          the waiting<br>

                                                          rooms of auto

                                                          dealerships

                                                          are almost

                                                          100% open.<br>

                                                          </blockquote>

                                                          </blockquote>

                                                          </span> [snip]<span><br>

                                                          On 2017-03-20

                                                          13:20, Stephen

                                                          Partington

                                                          wrote:<br>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                          This is

                                                          usually done

                                                          as a means to

                                                          be easy for

                                                          their

                                                          customers.<br>

                                                          </blockquote>

                                                          <br>

                                                          </span> Pretty

                                                          much this. 

                                                          Convenience is

                                                          more valuable

                                                          than security

                                                          in most

                                                          people's

                                                          minds.<span><br>

                                                          <br>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                          they’d be

                                                          happy to do

                                                          the right

                                                          thing if we

                                                          could explain

                                                          it to the

                                                          right people.<br>

                                                          </blockquote>

                                                          </blockquote>

                                                          <br>

                                                          </span> I'm

                                                          not sure this

                                                          would happen. 

                                                          Setting up

                                                          passwords and

                                                          then

                                                          distributing

                                                          those

                                                          passwords has

                                                          a non-zero

                                                          cost and

                                                          offers zero

                                                          visible

                                                          benefits for

                                                          most of the

                                                          people who are

                                                          using the

                                                          wireless

                                                          networks.[0] 

                                                          And as another

                                                          poster said,

                                                          what about

                                                          football/baseball

                                                          stadiums? 

                                                          Distributing

                                                          passwords to

                                                          tens of

                                                          thousands of

                                                          people is sort

                                                          of difficult. 

                                                          "Just watching

                                                          the game" is

                                                          not an option;

                                                          people want to

                                                          FaceTweet

                                                          pictures of

                                                          themselves at

                                                          the game.<br>

                                                          <br>

                                                          OTOH, the last

                                                          time I looked

                                                          at the access

                                                          points visible

                                                          from my living

                                                          room, almost

                                                          all of them

                                                          had some sort

                                                          of access

                                                          control

                                                          enabled. Maybe

                                                          there's a

                                                          social

                                                          convention

                                                          forming that

                                                          "my access

                                                          point" ~= "my

                                                          back yard" and

                                                          "open access

                                                          point" ~= "a

                                                          public park"?<br>

                                                          <br>

                                                          [0] Having a

                                                          more educated

                                                          user

                                                          population

                                                          would make the

                                                          benefits more

                                                          visible, but

                                                          it's very

                                                          difficult to

                                                          make people

                                                          care about

                                                          these things.<span

class="m_3664614906642159284m_6778587083276554415HOEnZb"><font

                                                          color="#888888"><br>

                                                          <br>

                                                          -- <br>

                                                          Crow202 Blog:

                                                          <a

                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"

href="http://crow202.org/wordpress" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://crow202.org/wordpress</a><br>

                                                          There is no

                                                          Darkness in

                                                          Eternity<br>

                                                          But only Light

                                                          too dim for us

                                                          to see.</font></span>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="m_3664614906642159284m_6778587083276554415HOEnZb">

                                                          <div

                                                          class="m_3664614906642159284m_6778587083276554415h5"><br>

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