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    <p>Mmm hmm. But at least nobody will know that you're streaming the

      footage of his arrival.</p>

    <p>Are these captcha-blockings you mention the same as when Google

      and others intercept you when they detect that you're not trying

      to login from the same IP as your previous logons? Back when I

      last used Tor to actually login to an account, sites I used

      weren't doing that kind of interception. I've merely browsed with

      Tor since.<br>

    </p>

    <p>- Vara<br>

    </p>

    <br>

    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/23/2017 5:13 PM, Eric Oyen wrote:<br>

    </div>

    <blockquote

      cite="mid:4E03AC1C-3C30-4297-80DF-722CDDD12C89@icloud.com"

      type="cite">That is the other problem I have seen with TOR. Any

      slower and the second coming of christ will arrive sooner. :)

      <div><br>

      </div>

      <div>-eric</div>

      <div>from the central office of the Technomage Guild, Editors

        choice dept.</div>

      <div><br>

        <div>

          <div>On Mar 23, 2017, at 4:02 PM, Vara La Fey wrote:</div>

          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

          <blockquote type="cite">

            <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"

              http-equiv="Content-Type">

            <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">

              <p>I'm all for education. I'm a trans-girl, and believe

                me, I would like to educate people a little about us.

                But I wouldn't take it upon myself to intrude on their

                time for a 3 Minute Love unless they're trying to hurt

                someone.<br>

              </p>

              <p>I don't want people semi-forcing content on me. And the

                desired "campaign" is exactly that. It's sad that

                everyone here who comments keeps asserting the "safety"

                benefits, without a care in the world about the sheer

                intrusiveness and the obvious socio-political abuses of

                systems like that becoming commonplace. Which hopefully

                they won't.</p>

              <p>I don't need a VPN and have never set one up, but I

                don't doubt the security of a VPN/Tor combination. And

                if you are really afraid of snoops and spooks, encrypt

                all your text traffic with large PGP keys. But I rarely

                use Tor because it's horribly slow, and PGP because it's

                an extra few steps. But they are always there for those

                special occasions.  :-)</p>

              <p>- Vara<br>

              </p>

              <br>

              <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/23/2017 3:16 PM, Eric

                Oyen wrote:<br>

              </div>

              <blockquote

                cite="mid:4EF5D72B-DFFB-4ECA-BDB1-A5CB66859068@icloud.com"

                type="cite">well, if you don't want to deal with bad

                certs, redirected https,etc, you can either not use that

                router/service or get a VPN and secure all your traffic.

                And yes, I will not use paywall systems of any kind,

                they have no business knowing what my credentials are.

                <div><br>

                </div>

                <div>Lastly, if I want real security, a combo of VPN and

                  TOR cannot be beat. I use private internet access for

                  the VPN and also have a TOR node setup here. the TOR

                  node will not be connected until after the VPN comes

                  up. why let my ISP know I am running a TOR node here

                  at home? The only issue I have with this is that my

                  search engine queries don't work right (mostly, I get

                  blocked and asked to solve a captcha, which is not

                  doable for the blind most times)</div>

                <div>Anyway, do what you must, but education should be

                  the first item on the list when it comes to net

                  security.</div>

                <div>

                  <div><br>

                  </div>

                  <div>-eric</div>

                  <div>from the central office of the Technomage Guild,

                    Security applications dept.</div>

                  <div><br>

                    <div>

                      <div>On Mar 23, 2017, at 2:50 PM, Vara La Fey

                        wrote:</div>

                      <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

                      <blockquote type="cite">

                        <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"

                          http-equiv="Content-Type">

                        <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> First you

                          were talking about open hotspots. Then you

                          were talking about https. Now you are talking

                          about ssl.<br>

                          <br>

                          But all the while you're still just talking

                          about monitoring and restricting the activity

                          of 3rd parties on 4th party systems. And it

                          seems really important to you for some reason.<br>

                          <br>

                          Please, waste time and effort and money

                          patenting your <i>spyware </i>chaperone

                          system that monitors web activity with the

                          intent of <i>creating consequences </i>for

                          activity which you - or your intended customer

                          - opines is "invalid". I doubt very many

                          people will buy into it because there is no

                          upside for them. Even when they alter it to

                          fit their own agenda, they just anger their

                          customers who can click OK for EULAs and enter

                          logins, but cannot bypass your 3 Minute Hate.<br>

                          <br>

                          If it can detect an "invalid" certificate,

                          then by changing a couple code lines (if

                          even), it can detect anything else about an

                          attempted site visit. Of course this ability

                          is ancient now, but less evil implementations

                          of it merely censor by blocking, which is bad

                          enough. Yours is "educational" - and it's

                          interesting that <i>you </i>put the quotes

                          around that word yourself - for the purpose of

                          taking up other people's time with propaganda.

                          <p>If it became common, it would become a

                            mandatory advertising medium anytime anyone

                            clicked on a competitor's site, or a site

                            with bad reviews for your customer. If it

                            became law, it would become a mandatory

                            propaganda delivery system anytime anyone

                            clicked on a site containing any kind of

                            dissenting viewpoint.</p>

                          <p>Are you hoping to create one of those

                            conditions? If so, which?<br>

                          </p>

                          <p>Because this sure looks like more than just

                            wanting to manipulate lesser people into a

                            system designed to reinforce your wishful

                            feelings of superiority. There has to be a

                            more compelling reason that you're this

                            overly concerned about what 3rd parties do

                            on 4th party systems.<br>

                          </p>

                          <p>Which, btw, brings up the fact that your

                            system is not equivalent to EULAs or logins

                            or pay systems, because the connection

                            provider has the right to set conditions for

                            using their connection. Your spyware idea is

                            to harass people who are using <i>other

                              people's</i> connections.</p>

                          <p>I'm not an expert on web connection

                            technology per se, but it seems that Tor

                            would nicely wire around all SSL issues

                            after the initial connection to the

                            now-restricted hotspot. You certainly make a

                            great case for using it, even if just on

                            general principle. So what would you do

                            about that?</p>

                          <p>I don't think your grandmother wants you

                            monitoring her activity. I don't think <i>anyone

                            </i>wants you monitoring their activity. But

                            you seem to want to do it anyway. And no one

                            but me is saying boo to you.  :-(</p>

                          <p>As to the trivia: I personally have never

                            had trouble from visiting a site with an

                            "invalid certificate" of any kind, because

                            that stuff simply isn't 100% maintained.

                            Obviously I am careful where I go and what I

                            click and download anyway. I do not so

                            easily ignore "known malware site" warnings,

                            and if in doubt about a site I reflexively

                            check the web address. <a

                              moz-do-not-send="true"

                              href="http://MyBank.Phishing.com/">MyBank.Phishing.com</a>

                            and <a moz-do-not-send="true"

                              href="http://Phishing.com/MyBank">Phishing.com/MyBank</a>

                            do not get clicks from me. But that's all

                            beside the point.<br>

                          </p>

                          <p><br>

                          </p>

                          <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/20/2017 9:57

                            PM, Brien Dieterle wrote:<br>

                          </div>

                          <blockquote

cite="mid:CAA_Swr=tOvKCDNfi=Cit9ccggBX=joHuFZShLFn=hm7ik+X67Q@mail.gmail.com"

                            type="cite">

                            <div dir="auto">

                              <div>

                                <div class="gmail_extra">

                                  <div class="gmail_quote">On Mar 20,

                                    2017 3:36 PM, "Vara La Fey" <<a

                                      moz-do-not-send="true"

                                      href="mailto:varalafey@gmail.com">varalafey@gmail.com</a>>

                                    wrote:<br type="attribution">

                                    <blockquote class="quote"

                                      style="margin:0 0 0

                                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc

                                      solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                      <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                        text="#000000">

                                        <p>OMG!!</p>

                                        <p>First of all, you'd be

                                          mis-educating them if telling

                                          them that certificate

                                          "validity" has any real

                                          meaning. (But now you're

                                          talking about http.)<br>

                                        </p>

                                      </div>

                                    </blockquote>

                                  </div>

                                </div>

                              </div>

                              <div dir="auto">I mean validity as in

                                trusted roots that have been shipped

                                with your OS or browser.  Surely you

                                don't mean these are meaningless. AFAIK

                                they are very reliable as long as you

                                never accept bogus certs.  If you accept

                                bogus certs "all the time", I really

                                hope you know what you're doing.  Pretty

                                much any important site should have

                                working SSL.</div>

                              <div dir="auto"><br>

                              </div>

                              <div dir="auto">There is a reason why all

                                the browsers freak out when you get a

                                bad cert, but users still click "add

                                exception".  My captive education portal

                                would give real consequence to this with

                                the 3 minute power point slideshow and

                                mandatory quiz.  I wonder if this is

                                already patented. . .</div>

                              <div dir="auto">

                                <div class="gmail_extra">

                                  <div class="gmail_quote">

                                    <blockquote class="quote"

                                      style="margin:0 0 0

                                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc

                                      solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                      <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                        text="#000000">

                                        <div> <br

                                            class="webkit-block-placeholder">

                                        </div>

                                        <p>Second, why do you think you

                                          have any right to put speed

                                          bumps in the way of people who

                                          are doing nothing to you? <br>

                                        </p>

                                      </div>

                                    </blockquote>

                                  </div>

                                </div>

                              </div>

                              <div dir="auto">Plenty of businesses do

                                this already for captive portals and

                                forcing users to log in, pay, or accept

                                an EULA.  They are already tampering

                                with your SSL connection in order to

                                redirect you to the portal. I'm just

                                suggesting to use this technology for

                                "educational" purposes.</div>

                              <div dir="auto">

                                <div class="gmail_extra">

                                  <div class="gmail_quote">

                                    <blockquote class="quote"

                                      style="margin:0 0 0

                                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc

                                      solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                      <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                        text="#000000">

                                        <div> <br

                                            class="webkit-block-placeholder">

                                        </div>

                                        <p>Third, if your grandmother

                                          needs internet "safety"

                                          education, just educate her,

                                          or refuse to keep fixing the

                                          problems she encounters in her

                                          ignorance - if she really is

                                          all that ignorant. I hope you

                                          wouldn't install a browser

                                          re-direct without her consent,

                                          because then you'd be just any

                                          other malware propagator with

                                          just any other self-righteous

                                          rationalization.<br>

                                        </p>

                                      </div>

                                    </blockquote>

                                  </div>

                                </div>

                              </div>

                              <div dir="auto">Well, I'm lazy.  I'd much

                                rather have an ongoing passive education

                                program for anyone that uses that

                                router.  Maybe only 1 in 1000 requests

                                trigger the "test", or once a month per

                                mac address maybe.  If grandma fails the

                                test I can get an email so I can call

                                her up and gently chastise her.

                                 "Grandmaaaa, did you accept a bogus SSL

                                certificate again? Hmmm?"</div>

                              <div dir="auto"><br>

                              </div>

                              <div dir="auto">As far as consent goes,

                                I'm only talking about routers you own

                                or have permission to modify.  That

                                should go without saying.</div>

                              <div dir="auto">

                                <div class="gmail_extra">

                                  <div class="gmail_quote">

                                    <blockquote class="quote"

                                      style="margin:0 0 0

                                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc

                                      solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                      <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                        text="#000000">

                                        <div> <br

                                            class="webkit-block-placeholder">

                                        </div>

                                        <p>Fourth, if <i>you </i>need

                                          educational "speed bumps" on <i>your

                                          </i>router, <i>you </i>are

                                          free to have them. One of the

                                          great things about freedom -

                                          from government or from

                                          meddling busybodies - is that

                                          <i>you </i>get to be free

                                          too.</p>

                                      </div>

                                    </blockquote>

                                  </div>

                                </div>

                              </div>

                              <div dir="auto">My post is in the context

                                of businesses or individuals that

                                provide Internet to the public. 

                                Presumably businesses and individuals

                                have the freedom to do this kind of SSL

                                interception, since they've already been

                                doing it for years without any

                                repercussions.  Personally I'm disturbed

                                that businesses will try to get me to

                                accept their SSL cert for their Wi-Fi

                                portal, but I know the technology leaves

                                little choice.  One trick is to ignore

                                the cert and try again with a non SSL

                                address.</div>

                              <div dir="auto"><br>

                              </div>

                              <div dir="auto"><span

                                  style="font-family:sans-serif">It is

                                  pretty ironic that the first thing

                                  these captive portals ask users to do

                                  is blindly accept a bogus SSL cert. 

                                  It is really just a sad state of

                                  affairs that we are literally training

                                  people to accept bad SSL certificates.</span><br>

                              </div>

                              <div dir="auto">

                                <div class="gmail_extra">

                                  <div class="gmail_quote">

                                    <blockquote class="quote"

                                      style="margin:0 0 0

                                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc

                                      solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                      <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                        text="#000000">

                                        <p>For years my Firefox has had

                                          an option to "always use

                                          HTTPS", and I'm sure all other

                                          modern browsers do as well.

                                          Plus, <a

                                            moz-do-not-send="true"

                                            href="http://Mozilla.org/">Mozilla.org</a>

                                          has a free plugin - I think

                                          it's from <a

                                            moz-do-not-send="true"

                                            href="http://EFF.org/">EFF.org</a>

                                          - called "HTTPS Everywhere".

                                          It's all very easy to use, and

                                          will be almost entirely

                                          transparent to Grandma.<br>

                                        </p>

                                      </div>

                                    </blockquote>

                                  </div>

                                </div>

                              </div>

                              <div dir="auto">This won't do anything to

                                protect you/grandma from bogus ssl

                                certs.  Imagine connecting to a bad AP

                                at Starbucks that is proxying all your

                                SSL connections.  Your only defense is

                                trusted roots and knowing not to accept

                                bogus SSL certs.  If only we had a

                                captive router-based SSL education

                                program... ;)</div>

                              <div dir="auto"><br>

                              </div>

                              <div dir="auto"><br>

                              </div>

                              <div dir="auto">

                                <div class="gmail_extra">

                                  <div class="gmail_quote">

                                    <blockquote class="quote"

                                      style="margin:0 0 0

                                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc

                                      solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                      <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                        text="#000000">

                                        <div> <br

                                            class="webkit-block-placeholder">

                                        </div>

                                        <div class="elided-text"> <br>

                                          <div

                                            class="m_3664614906642159284moz-cite-prefix">On

                                            3/20/2017 3:14 PM, Brien

                                            Dieterle wrote:<br>

                                          </div>

                                          <blockquote type="cite">

                                            <div dir="ltr">A system like

                                              I described would just be

                                              an "educational tool" to

                                              encourage people to use

                                              HTTPS (properly).  It

                                              wouldn't stop you from

                                              accepting bogus

                                              certificates-- just a

                                              speed bump.  Now that I've

                                              thought about it I'd

                                              really like to install

                                              something like this on my

                                              grandparent's router. .

                                              .   heck, my own router. .

                                              .<br>

                                              <div>

                                                <div class="gmail_extra"><br>

                                                  <div

                                                    class="gmail_quote">On

                                                    Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at

                                                    2:50 PM, Vara La Fey

                                                    <span dir="ltr"><<a

moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:varalafey@gmail.com" target="_blank">varalafey@gmail.com</a>></span>

                                                    wrote:<br>

                                                    <blockquote

                                                      class="gmail_quote"

                                                      style="margin:0 0

                                                      0

                                                      .8ex;border-left:1px

                                                      #ccc

                                                      solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                      <div

                                                        bgcolor="#FFFFFF"

                                                        text="#000000">

                                                        <p>Oh HELL no!!

                                                          What kind of

                                                          hall-monitor

                                                          nanny

                                                          mentality do

                                                          you want

                                                          people to

                                                          adopt??</p>

                                                        <p>I accept

                                                          "bogus"

                                                          certificates

                                                          all the time

                                                          because the

                                                          whole idea of

                                                          certificates

                                                          is crap in the

                                                          first place -

                                                          they are NOT

                                                          maintained -

                                                          and years ago

                                                          I got tired of

                                                          that procedure

                                                          warning me

                                                          about

                                                          "invalid"

                                                          certificates

                                                          for sites that

                                                          were perfectly

                                                          valid.</p>

                                                        <p>I've never

                                                          had a problem.

                                                          Of course I'm

                                                          also careful

                                                          where I go,

                                                          certificate or

                                                          not.</p>

                                                        <span

                                                          class="m_3664614906642159284HOEnZb"><font

color="#888888">

                                                          <p>- Vara<br>

                                                          </p>

                                                          </font></span>

                                                        <div>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="m_3664614906642159284h5">

                                                          <br>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="m_3664614906642159284m_6778587083276554415moz-cite-prefix">On

                                                          3/20/2017 2:12

                                                          PM, Brien

                                                          Dieterle

                                                          wrote:<br>

                                                          </div>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          type="cite">

                                                          <div dir="ltr">Maybe

                                                          every

                                                          commercial

                                                          router should

                                                          do SSL

                                                          interception

                                                          by default. 

                                                          If a user

                                                          accepts a

                                                          bogus

                                                          certificate

                                                          they are taken

                                                          to a page that

                                                          thoroughly

                                                          scolds them

                                                          and informs

                                                          them about the

                                                          huge mistake

                                                          they made,

                                                          forces them to

                                                          read a few

                                                          slides and

                                                          take a quiz on

                                                          network safety

                                                          before

                                                          allowing them

                                                          on the

                                                          Internet. 

                                                          Maybe do the

                                                          same for

                                                          non-ssl HTTP

                                                          traffic, etc..

                                                          . <br>

                                                          </div>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="gmail_extra"><br>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="gmail_quote">On

                                                          Mon, Mar 20,

                                                          2017 at 1:55

                                                          PM, Matt

                                                          Graham <span

                                                          dir="ltr"><<a

moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mhgraham@crow202.org"

                                                          target="_blank">mhgraham@crow202.org</a>></span>

                                                          wrote:<br>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                          On Mon, Mar

                                                          20, 2017 at

                                                          12:29 PM,

                                                          Victor Odhner

                                                          <<a

                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"

href="mailto:vodhner@cox.net" target="_blank">vodhner@cox.net</a>>

                                                          wrote:<br>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                          I’m really

                                                          annoyed that

                                                          so many

                                                          companies

                                                          offer open

                                                          WIFI when it

                                                          would be<br>

                                                          so easy to

                                                          secure those

                                                          hot spots. 

                                                          Restaurants,

                                                          hotels, and

                                                          the waiting<br>

                                                          rooms of auto

                                                          dealerships

                                                          are almost

                                                          100% open.<br>

                                                          </blockquote>

                                                          </blockquote>

                                                          </span> [snip]<span><br>

                                                          On 2017-03-20

                                                          13:20, Stephen

                                                          Partington

                                                          wrote:<br>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                          This is

                                                          usually done

                                                          as a means to

                                                          be easy for

                                                          their

                                                          customers.<br>

                                                          </blockquote>

                                                          <br>

                                                          </span> Pretty

                                                          much this. 

                                                          Convenience is

                                                          more valuable

                                                          than security

                                                          in most

                                                          people's

                                                          minds.<span><br>

                                                          <br>

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                          <blockquote

                                                          class="gmail_quote"

style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

                                                          they’d be

                                                          happy to do

                                                          the right

                                                          thing if we

                                                          could explain

                                                          it to the

                                                          right people.<br>

                                                          </blockquote>

                                                          </blockquote>

                                                          <br>

                                                          </span> I'm

                                                          not sure this

                                                          would happen. 

                                                          Setting up

                                                          passwords and

                                                          then

                                                          distributing

                                                          those

                                                          passwords has

                                                          a non-zero

                                                          cost and

                                                          offers zero

                                                          visible

                                                          benefits for

                                                          most of the

                                                          people who are

                                                          using the

                                                          wireless

                                                          networks.[0] 

                                                          And as another

                                                          poster said,

                                                          what about

                                                          football/baseball

                                                          stadiums? 

                                                          Distributing

                                                          passwords to

                                                          tens of

                                                          thousands of

                                                          people is sort

                                                          of difficult. 

                                                          "Just watching

                                                          the game" is

                                                          not an option;

                                                          people want to

                                                          FaceTweet

                                                          pictures of

                                                          themselves at

                                                          the game.<br>

                                                          <br>

                                                          OTOH, the last

                                                          time I looked

                                                          at the access

                                                          points visible

                                                          from my living

                                                          room, almost

                                                          all of them

                                                          had some sort

                                                          of access

                                                          control

                                                          enabled. Maybe

                                                          there's a

                                                          social

                                                          convention

                                                          forming that

                                                          "my access

                                                          point" ~= "my

                                                          back yard" and

                                                          "open access

                                                          point" ~= "a

                                                          public park"?<br>

                                                          <br>

                                                          [0] Having a

                                                          more educated

                                                          user

                                                          population

                                                          would make the

                                                          benefits more

                                                          visible, but

                                                          it's very

                                                          difficult to

                                                          make people

                                                          care about

                                                          these things.<span

class="m_3664614906642159284m_6778587083276554415HOEnZb"><font

                                                          color="#888888"><br>

                                                          <br>

                                                          -- <br>

                                                          Crow202 Blog:

                                                          <a

                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"

href="http://crow202.org/wordpress" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://crow202.org/wordpress</a><br>

                                                          There is no

                                                          Darkness in

                                                          Eternity<br>

                                                          But only Light

                                                          too dim for us

                                                          to see.</font></span>

                                                          <div

                                                          class="m_3664614906642159284m_6778587083276554415HOEnZb">

                                                          <div

                                                          class="m_3664614906642159284m_6778587083276554415h5"><br>

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