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    <p>I've had USB drives cause a pc not to post before, I'm not
      surprised these days.  Mine did ship with a 2tb drive that wasn't
      showing up for me, but I put it in the last chassis slot, that
      might not even be cabled.  The ssd i put in it's place though
      always seemed present.<br>
    </p>
    <p>In the end it took using an ubuntu netboot cd to get mine
      working.  Prior to doing so, I flashed it with with a current
      bios, and loaded up the netboot cd to try.  No stupidity this time
      with it, and it passed on without dying at the cd check like the
      server cd did, same internal cd drive and media, burn method
      (k3b), etc.  Nothing notable really, but I did just do a quick
      install since it was only a temp drive anyways was kept basic and
      got kde up on it.  Finally.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Sort of what I would have expected from the get go.<br>
    </p>
    <p>I'll go back and try the server cd once my actual drives show up,
      and or desktop iso as I'm debating some experiments with zfs
      booting.  Holding out for some samsung 960 nvme love coming out
      next week to experiment on though.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Really odd so far the booting issue, but otherwise no other
      issues with the hardware once a cd would finally boot.  I sitll
      don't think it was my hardware, but I'll try some more with same
      media later.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Need to load up Steam and see how the 1070 does with something
      like Shadows of Moridor that would get very odd glitches with my
      amd.  Now I can also run a bunch more vm appliances at the same
      time as I often need to these days for labs, my current with 32gb
      just didn't cut it for everything anymore.<br>
    </p>
    <p>This workstation should, for a time at least.  Thanks for the
      tips everyone!<br>
    </p>
    <p><img src="cid:part1.70D4CE19.F69F3950@butash.net" alt=""
        height="351" width="701"></p>
    -mb<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/09/2016 09:14 AM, Stephen
      Partington wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CACS_G9zZz1sdRND2aj+L+5eKwvoneeAM-Co2edh1mDrAwGkSsg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <p dir="ltr">So I have learned something interesting. My system
        has a Marvell based chips etc providing some extra sata3 ports.
        If I have a SATA device plugged into that controller I gets some
        pretty interesting errors on boot preventing the installer from
        even loading. In this case my blue ray drive was connected so I
        simply unplugged that. This was affecting me on Ubuntu 16.04 and
        16.10.</p>
      <p dir="ltr">This might be related to your root issue. </p>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 8, 2016 9:10 PM, "Stephen
          Partington" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:cryptworks@gmail.com">cryptworks@gmail.com</a>>
          wrote:<br type="attribution">
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
                ms,sans-serif">So I am now running Ubuntu 16.10 on my
                main machine with LVM-cache UEFI and my shiny new GTX
                1070 with KDE Plasma 5.7.5</div>
              <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
                ms,sans-serif"><br>
              </div>
              <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet
                ms,sans-serif">So far It is running very well. after i
                broke my LVM about 4 times trying to remember how ti set
                up LVM cache...</div>
            </div>
            <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
              <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 8:17 PM,
                Brian Cluff <span dir="ltr"><<a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:brian@snaptek.com" target="_blank">brian@snaptek.com</a>></span>
                wrote:<br>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                    <p>I just had to kill that on my home machine.  It
                      was making me wait 5 minutes even though I
                      actually already had a connection... lame.</p>
                    <span class="m_5561462196125305301HOEnZb"><font
                        color="#888888">
                        <p>Brian Cluff<br>
                        </p>
                      </font></span>
                    <div>
                      <div class="m_5561462196125305301h5">
                        <div
                          class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466moz-cite-prefix">On
                          11/08/2016 09:54 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:<br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div class="gmail_default"
                              style="font-family:trebuchet
                              ms,sans-serif">I do much the same here.
                              But if you are installing something that
                              does not have an always connected network
                              you might want to adjust the wait timeout
                              for networking sooner than later. 5m boot
                              delays are weird and annoying.</div>
                          </div>
                          <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                            <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 8, 2016
                              at 8:59 AM, Brian Cluff <span dir="ltr"><<a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="mailto:brian@snaptek.com"
                                  target="_blank">brian@snaptek.com</a>></span>
                              wrote:<br>
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
                                #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                                  <p>In my experience the server install
                                    is pretty much just a minimal
                                    install that asks you at the end if
                                    you want to install certain typical
                                    server software.  I just normally
                                    just pick SSH server and then add
                                    whatever I want after the first
                                    boot.  I've always had less problems
                                    installing the server over rather
                                    than the desktop install because of
                                    the odd graphics card problems that
                                    pop up from time to time (but hardly
                                    ever these days) since the server
                                    install uses a text based
                                    installer.  The server install will
                                    allow you easily install a basic
                                    system and then install the
                                    proprietary graphics drivers
                                    afterwards skipping having to have
                                    them to install in the first place.</p>
                                  <p>The only real gotcha is that it
                                    takes longer to install since much
                                    of your software (aka your entire
                                    desktop environment) will have to be
                                    downloaded over the Internet rather
                                    than coming off of nice fast flash
                                    drives or DVDs.  You could, if you
                                    are in a hurry, install via the
                                    server install disk and then use the
                                    packages on the desktop install to
                                    feed your desktop install, but in
                                    the long run it probably won't save
                                    you any time since you would still
                                    want to update everything over the
                                    Internet and that would take just
                                    about as long.  Then again, if you
                                    have the server installed, you can
                                    actually be doing stuff to customize
                                    your install at the same time that
                                    it's installing/updating so it's
                                    probably all in all a speed win.<span
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466HOEnZb"><font
                                        color="#888888"><br>
                                      </font></span></p>
                                  <span
                                    class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466HOEnZb"><font
                                      color="#888888">
                                      <p>Brian Cluff<br>
                                      </p>
                                    </font></span>
                                  <div>
                                    <div
                                      class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466h5">
                                      On 11/08/2016 12:49 AM, trent
                                      shipley wrote:<br>
                                      <blockquote type="cite">
                                        <div dir="ltr">What are some of
                                          the gotchas he can expect in
                                          installing: server -> delta
                                          desktop repository -> delta
                                          desktop gui -> no more than
                                          two days tweaking system? OR:
                                          <div>desktop install ->
                                            delta server -> tweak?</div>
                                          <div><br>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>I'd expect using the
                                            server distro as the base to
                                            work better with a server
                                            enabled workstation, but
                                            that's just a layperson's
                                            hunch.</div>
                                        </div>
                                        <br>
                                        <div class="gmail_quote">
                                          <div dir="ltr">On Mon, Nov 7,
                                            2016 at 3:35 PM Brian Cluff
                                            <<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:brian@snaptek.com"
                                              target="_blank">brian@snaptek.com</a>>
                                            wrote:<br>
                                          </div>
                                          <blockquote
                                            class="gmail_quote"
                                            style="margin:0 0 0
                                            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                            solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                            <div
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">Plus
                                              one for the server install
                                              DVD. If you are going to
                                              do anything out of the
                                              norm, always reach for the
                                              server install. Then just
                                              apt install
                                              kubuntu-desktop when
                                              everything is done
                                              installing.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                              <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                              Kde neon is pretty good
                                              right now and about the
                                              only way to get an up to
                                              date kde experience right
                                              now, but it will still use
                                              the Ubuntu installer. It
                                              would probably be best for
                                              you to use the server
                                              install cd, then add the
                                              neon repositories, and
                                              then install the the
                                              neon-desktop</div>
                                            <div
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                              <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                              Brian Cluff<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                              <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                            </div>
                                            <div
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                              <div class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">On
                                                November 7, 2016 1:17:07
                                                PM MST, Stephen
                                                Partington <<a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cryptworks@gmail.com"
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
                                                  target="_blank">cryptworks@gmail.com</a>>
                                                wrote:</div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                              <div class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                <blockquote
                                                  class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
                                                  style="margin:0pt 0pt
                                                  0pt
                                                  0.8ex;border-left:1px
                                                  solid
                                                  rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                  <div dir="ltr"
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                    <div
                                                      class="gmail_default
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Wow. you worked much harder
                                                      with the desktop
                                                      install media than
                                                      i would have. I
                                                      usually 86 the
                                                      desktop install
                                                      media and just use
                                                      the server install
                                                      media to get the
                                                      LVM/Raid settings
                                                      i want to use. i
                                                      just have to
                                                      remember to
                                                      disable the
                                                      network wait on
                                                      boot.</div>
                                                    <div
                                                      class="gmail_default
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div
                                                      class="gmail_default
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">I am about to try something
                                                      like this again
                                                      for a while as
                                                      Windows 10 is
                                                      irking me again
                                                      more and more.</div>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div
                                                    class="gmail_extra
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                    <div
                                                      class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">On
                                                      Mon, Nov 7, 2016
                                                      at 12:17 PM,
                                                      Michael Butash <span
                                                        dir="ltr"
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mike@butash.net"
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
target="_blank">mike@butash.net</a>></span> wrote:<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                      <blockquote
                                                        class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
                                                        style="margin:0
                                                        0 0
                                                        .8ex;border-left:1px
                                                        #ccc
                                                        solid;padding-left:1ex">Sorry
                                                        for the fire and
                                                        forget, had to
                                                        rebuild a data
                                                        center for a
                                                        customer over
                                                        the weekend - I
                                                        was just really
                                                        hoping to have
                                                        the darn box up
                                                        before I left to
                                                        work on it
                                                        remote, such a
                                                        simple feat
                                                        normally, but I
                                                        had no time for
                                                        anyways.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        Rest inline...<span
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          On 11/03/2016
                                                          03:54 AM,
                                                          Steve Litt
                                                          wrote:<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        </span>
                                                        <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          On Wed, 2 Nov
                                                          2016 18:38:24
                                                          -0700<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          Michael Butash
                                                          <<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mike@butash.net"
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
target="_blank">mike@butash.net</a>> wrote:<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          </span><span
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          This is really
                                                          why I have a
                                                          hate/love
                                                          relation with
                                                          ubuntu, it
                                                          never<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          fails to
                                                          disappoint. 
                                                          My road to
                                                          16.04 has been
                                                          all upgrades
                                                          so far,<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          this time I'm
                                                          using 16.04.1
                                                          cd's from
                                                          scratch.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          Curious: What
                                                          do you love
                                                          about it? You
                                                          seem like the
                                                          kind of person<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          who could work
                                                          with any
                                                          distro.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          </span></blockquote>
                                                        Short answer, it
                                                        usually works
                                                        where others do
                                                        not with my
                                                        graphics, a
                                                        6-head amd video
                                                        card which until
                                                        recently, I used
                                                        all ports on.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        Long story,
                                                        probably tldr
                                                        (you asked!),
                                                        definitely
                                                        love/hate...<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        After my last
                                                        straw with
                                                        windoze and
                                                        making the
                                                        decision to
                                                        force myself to
                                                        use linux to
                                                        both learn and
                                                        abandon m$
                                                        shitty ecosystem
                                                        circa 2006, I
                                                        tried a bit of
                                                        everything
                                                        disto-wise.  I
                                                        always loathed
                                                        redhat and rpm
                                                        hell (no, yum
                                                        didn't entirely
                                                        fix this, and
                                                        much later), I
                                                        came from
                                                        slackware/open|freebsd/solaris
                                                        background
                                                        having no desire
                                                        to go back, and
                                                        oddly landed on
                                                        Mandrake for a
                                                        bit.  Until I
                                                        started hacking
                                                        on it, and
                                                        things came
                                                        unglued.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        I decided to try
                                                        Ubuntu after
                                                        reading about
                                                        debian roots
                                                        I've heard
                                                        praised (tried
                                                        for 2 seconds,
                                                        got annoyed,
                                                        don't remember
                                                        now why), I
                                                        think 6.04 at
                                                        the time, and
                                                        oddly it "just
                                                        worked".<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        I didn't begin
                                                        to have any real
                                                        issues until
                                                        10.10 until the
                                                        era of unity
                                                        hell began, and
                                                        they started
                                                        trying to make
                                                        Ubuntu install
                                                        more idiot-proof
                                                        for, well
                                                        idiots.  Sadly
                                                        it removed all
                                                        the good
                                                        features like
                                                        complex raid,
                                                        crypto, and lvm
                                                        setup, making it
                                                        about as stupid
                                                        as possible, but
                                                        there was always
                                                        the alt
                                                        installer and
                                                        just simply not
                                                        using unity, if
                                                        I could just get
                                                        the damn os on a
                                                        system.  Thanks
                                                        Canonical.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        They then pissed
                                                        on that,
                                                        fiddling with
                                                        (breaking) the
                                                        alt installer
                                                        removing fdisk
                                                        (it's what I
                                                        used for my
                                                        raid+crypto+lvm
                                                        setup), and
                                                        ultimately doing
                                                        away with the
                                                        alt installer
                                                        all together as
                                                        insult to
                                                        injury.  Again I
                                                        worked around
                                                        them in other
                                                        ways, building
                                                        my fs manually
                                                        with an arch cd
                                                        first learning
                                                        how to build it
                                                        all manually
                                                        from busybox
                                                        again, and trick
                                                        the netboot
                                                        installer into
                                                        working over
                                                        it.  Thanks
                                                        again
                                                        Canonoical.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        Around 2014, I
                                                        got really
                                                        annoyed after
                                                        dist-upgrade
                                                        blew up my
                                                        system that I
                                                        decide to
                                                        sojourn a bit
                                                        and explore
                                                        distros again
                                                        with a new
                                                        laptop I'd
                                                        gotten.  I
                                                        couldn't even
                                                        get fedora's
                                                        vaunted
                                                        installer to
                                                        reproduce my
                                                        raid+crypt+lvm
                                                        setup, and
                                                        despised the
                                                        notion of going
                                                        back to it
                                                        anyways, but at
                                                        the request of a
                                                        friend that for
                                                        some reason
                                                        likes it,
                                                        tried.  Even
                                                        tried Red Hat's
                                                        official
                                                        installer, more
                                                        broken than
                                                        fedora, scratch
                                                        either/or. 
                                                        Tried Arch too,
                                                        got to a
                                                        desktop, and
                                                        found hell with
                                                        the AMD drivers
                                                        and graphics
                                                        capabilities in
                                                        general.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        I settled on
                                                        Mint Debian
                                                        edition with
                                                        Mate, as
                                                        Cinnamon was all
                                                        sorts of broken
                                                        with compositing
                                                        on even the most
                                                        basic intel gpu,
                                                        which seemed
                                                        like instant
                                                        fail.  Mate was
                                                        great, and used
                                                        that for a bit
                                                        until with some
                                                        new ssd's I'd
                                                        begun to rebuild
                                                        my desktop with
                                                        mint de mate,
                                                        and found ATI
                                                        graphic hell in
                                                        my desktop.  AMD
                                                        only cares about
                                                        fedora/ubuntu as
                                                        a linux entity,
                                                        knew it would
                                                        likely work
                                                        there, and again
                                                        hacked ubuntu
                                                        back onto my
                                                        system.  It's
                                                        the same install
                                                        I'm using today,
                                                        and eventually
                                                        moved my laptop
                                                        back to ubuntu.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        What I really
                                                        can't fathom is
                                                        how Canonical
                                                        can keep
                                                        breaking their
                                                        installers in
                                                        such new and
                                                        creative ways
                                                        each time, and
                                                        only I seem to
                                                        notice, but then
                                                        again, I expect
                                                        linux features
                                                        most people
                                                        don't know even
                                                        exist or care
                                                        about like raid,
                                                        crypto, or
                                                        volume
                                                        management.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        If BTRFS or ZFS
                                                        supported better
                                                        encryption, I'd
                                                        love to use one
                                                        native fs to do
                                                        all the
                                                        raid/crypto/lvm
                                                        in it.  I think
                                                        as of this year,
                                                        either/both
                                                        might, so worth
                                                        exploring, but I
                                                        bet ubuntu's
                                                        installers will
                                                        still suck in
                                                        dealing with
                                                        them.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        Yes, AMD is a
                                                        root evil for
                                                        linux graphics
                                                        and at times the
                                                        kernels, but
                                                        nvidia to this
                                                        day still has
                                                        not put out a
                                                        6-head video
                                                        card like AMD
                                                        that I actually
                                                        use all 6 ports
                                                        of.  Now I have
                                                        3x montiors
                                                        (well, tv's), so
                                                        this new one has
                                                        a nice new 1070
                                                        card in it. 
                                                        Which thanks to
                                                        their crappy
                                                        business
                                                        practices too of
                                                        not releasing
                                                        firmware
                                                        immediately
                                                        (that amd would
                                                        decompile), I
                                                        know nouveau has
                                                        issues with, and
                                                        the binary drive
                                                        is necessary. 
                                                        I'm handy with
                                                        cli here, not
                                                        too worried,
                                                        more that their
                                                        drivers suck too
                                                        these days.<span
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I
                                                          really don't
                                                          want to have
                                                          to make a
                                                          circle of
                                                          distro's to
                                                          end up<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          back here
                                                          again, but
                                                          ubuntu is
                                                          always so
                                                          basically
                                                          dysfunctional<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          these days
                                                          with the most
                                                          basic things,
                                                          it's hard to
                                                          want to care.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          I wonder how
                                                          much others
                                                          have seen
                                                          this.  This is
                                                          with legacy
                                                          boot in<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          bios, no uefi
                                                          crap, and just
                                                          a basic d-i
                                                          based ubuntu
                                                          server
                                                          install,<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          and/or
                                                          kubuntu.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          I used Ubuntu
                                                          for several
                                                          years because
                                                          it "just
                                                          works." The
                                                          trouble<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          was, as I got
                                                          more
                                                          sophisticated,
                                                          Ubuntu's
                                                          seatbelts and
                                                          airbags and<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          danger sensing
                                                          devices and
                                                          training
                                                          wheels and all
                                                          that other
                                                          stuff so<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          necessary to
                                                          the newbie
                                                          badly got in
                                                          my way.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                        </span> I agree,
                                                        it feels almost
                                                        childish to
                                                        still use Ubuntu
                                                        at this stage,
                                                        but nothing else
                                                        has worked
                                                        suitably, and
                                                        I'm somewhat
                                                        tired of
                                                        trying+disappointment
                                                        when history has
                                                        proven most
                                                        others to be
                                                        inadequate or
                                                        worse.<span
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          So I ditched
                                                          Ubuntu for
                                                          Debian, and
                                                          that was
                                                          great, but
                                                          then Debian<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          went systemd
                                                          so I switched
                                                          to Void Linux,
                                                          and after a
                                                          rocky 5 weeks
                                                          of<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          Void
                                                          newbie-ism,
                                                          Void has
                                                          turned out to
                                                          be the most
                                                          useful,
                                                          maleable<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          and stable
                                                          distro I've
                                                          ever used.
                                                          I've used Void
                                                          for over a
                                                          year now.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                        </span> That's
                                                        why I tried Mint
                                                        Debian Edition -
                                                        figured deb it
                                                        might suck less
                                                        and just wanted
                                                        a modern ui, but
                                                        found that their
                                                        driver support
                                                        for AMD, or
                                                        rather a support
                                                        for modern
                                                        versions thereof
                                                        for graphics
                                                        were fairly
                                                        lacking, and no
                                                        one from a major
                                                        org cares enough
                                                        to fix it.  I
                                                        simply could not
                                                        get their kernel
                                                        to take the amd
                                                        driver, which
                                                        was a
                                                        non-starter. 
                                                        It's actually
                                                        what drove me
                                                        finally back to
                                                        Ubuntu natively
                                                        just for a
                                                        working video
                                                        solution, and at
                                                        times keeps me
                                                        bound.<span
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I
                                                          think you've
                                                          probably
                                                          outgrown
                                                          Ubuntu.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                        </span> See
                                                        above.  It tends
                                                        to work great as
                                                        long as I don't
                                                        have to 1)
                                                        install it via
                                                        "normal" means
                                                        or 2) upgrade
                                                        it, both often
                                                        suck these
                                                        days.  Both have
                                                        simply continued
                                                        to get worse and
                                                        worse, and I
                                                        only encounter
                                                        them every few
                                                        years out of
                                                        necessity of
                                                        they are also
                                                        both my primary
                                                        means of working
                                                        as my own
                                                        business.  Once
                                                        I hit 14.04
                                                        stable, I
                                                        upgraded only
                                                        upon absolute
                                                        necessity core
                                                        functions like
                                                        kernel or
                                                        desktop libs,
                                                        and only
                                                        essential apps
                                                        that require
                                                        them (browsers
                                                        really), but
                                                        otherwise didn't
                                                        upgrade core
                                                        until 16.04 when
                                                        it released. 
                                                        That's been a
                                                        current longer
                                                        evolutionary
                                                        story I'll get
                                                        to eventually.<span
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          BUT, as far as
                                                          your current
                                                          no-booting
                                                          installer
                                                          problem, I
                                                          wonder if<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          your media are
                                                          bad. Just for
                                                          fun, boot
                                                          System Rescue
                                                          CD and have a
                                                          look<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          around the
                                                          system to
                                                          verify no disk
                                                          or RAM
                                                          problems, and
                                                          that the<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          processor is
                                                          what you think
                                                          it is. If you
                                                          can't boot
                                                          System Rescue
                                                          CD<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          either, that
                                                          points an
                                                          accusing
                                                          finger at your
                                                          DVD drive.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                        </span> This is
                                                        something I'd
                                                        seen before
                                                        actually, I'd
                                                        mentioned
                                                        another time
                                                        about arch and
                                                        disk-label
                                                        usage.  I don't
                                                        think it's
                                                        media, but who
                                                        knows.  My 10
                                                        year old spindle
                                                        of dvd-r's might
                                                        be breaking down
                                                        by now, but
                                                        first time I've
                                                        seen this with a
                                                        anything, why I
                                                        tried both the
                                                        built-in, and a
                                                        usb, of which
                                                        I've used
                                                        hundreds of
                                                        times to boot
                                                        things, almost
                                                        always said
                                                        linux boxes over
                                                        the past 10
                                                        years, another
                                                        not long ago.<span
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          Also, try
                                                          burning your
                                                          disks with
                                                          cdrecord (or
                                                          wodim) instead
                                                          of a gui.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          I use a
                                                          command
                                                          something like
                                                          this:<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          cdrecord
                                                          dev=/dev/sr0
                                                          padsize=63s
                                                          driveropts=burnfree
                                                          \<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          -pad -dao -v
                                                          -eject
                                                          myimage.iso<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          The
                                                          padsize=63s
                                                          and -pad help
                                                          with the Linux
                                                          readahead bug.
                                                          Burnfree<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          means you
                                                          don't
                                                          unknowingly
                                                          make coasters
                                                          or bad discs
                                                          if your
                                                          computer<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          can't deliver
                                                          the data fast
                                                          enough.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          If you perform
                                                          the burn like
                                                          I mentioned
                                                          above, you
                                                          *should* be
                                                          able to<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          md5 check the
                                                          disc to the
                                                          same md5sum as
                                                          the iso file
                                                          by following<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          directions
                                                          here:<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/coasterless.htm"
                                                          rel="noreferrer"
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
target="_blank">http://www.troubleshooters.com<wbr>/linux/coasterless.htm</a><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                        </span>
                                                        Interesting -
                                                        I've not had to
                                                        adjust a cd like
                                                        that using k3b
                                                        on linux ever or
                                                        nero in win
                                                        since doing so
                                                        for pirated drm
                                                        games. Only time
                                                        seeing something
                                                        like that is
                                                        using unetbootin
                                                        to make the usb
                                                        where it doesn't
                                                        know the iso
                                                        expects a
                                                        certain disk
                                                        label to exist. 
                                                        This seemed more
                                                        a sloppy iso
                                                        build in the few
                                                        hours I had with
                                                        the system and
                                                        ample
                                                        frustration to
                                                        write that.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        Thank you for
                                                        that tidbit,
                                                        I'll try it
                                                        after I fiddle
                                                        with the bios
                                                        more on this. 
                                                        I'm going to try
                                                        a kde neon build
                                                        (really what I'm
                                                        interested in
                                                        more here), I
                                                        just didn't have
                                                        the time as it
                                                        showed up 5
                                                        hours before I
                                                        had to pack,
                                                        sleep, and hop
                                                        on a plane (sad,
                                                        I know).  It's a
                                                        t7910 precision
                                                        dell, more a
                                                        server board
                                                        than desktop, so
                                                        I'd really
                                                        expect better
                                                        behaviour here
                                                        on either pc or
                                                        ubuntu.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                        I'll update when
                                                        I get to it
                                                        tonight
                                                        hopefully.
                                                        <div
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564m_2380351049852680923HOEnZb
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <div
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564m_2380351049852680923h5
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                                          HTH,<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          SteveT<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          Steve Litt<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          November 2016
                                                          featured book:
                                                          Quit
                                                          Joblessness:
                                                          Start Your Own
                                                          Business<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz" rel="noreferrer"
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
target="_blank">http://www.troubleshooters.com<wbr>/startbiz</a><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
------------------------------<wbr>---------------------<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          PLUG-discuss
                                                          mailing list -
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.or<wbr>g</a><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          To subscribe,
                                                          unsubscribe,
                                                          or to change
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class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
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class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
------------------------------<wbr>---------------------<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          PLUG-discuss
                                                          mailing list -
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org"
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.or<wbr>g</a><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          To subscribe,
                                                          unsubscribe,
                                                          or to change
                                                          your mail
                                                          settings:<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          <a
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href="http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss"
                                                          rel="noreferrer"
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
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class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </blockquote>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                    <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
                                                      clear="all">
                                                    <div
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"><br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                    </div>
                                                    -- <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                    <div
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564m_2380351049852680923gmail_signature
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">A mouse trap, placed on top of your
                                                      alarm clock, will
                                                      prevent you from
                                                      rolling over and
                                                      going back to
                                                      sleep after you
                                                      hit the snooze
                                                      button.<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                      <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                      Stephen<br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                      <br
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </blockquote>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div
class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                              <div class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">
                                                <blockquote
                                                  class="gmail_quote
m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg"
                                                  style="margin:0pt 0pt
                                                  0pt
                                                  0.8ex;border-left:1px
                                                  solid
                                                  rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                                  <pre class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564m_2380351049852680923k9mail m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg">PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.or<wbr>g</a>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss" class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg" target="_blank">http://lists.phxlinux.org/mail<wbr>man/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></pre>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
          </div>
          ------------------------------<wbr>---------------------

          PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.or<wbr>g</a>

          To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:

          <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss" rel="noreferrer" class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564gmail_msg" target="_blank">http://lists.phxlinux.org/mail<wbr>man/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></blockquote>
      </div>
      

      <fieldset class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      

      <pre>------------------------------<wbr>---------------------
PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466m_2792327019177089564moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.or<wbr>g</a>
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    </blockquote>
    

  </div></div></div>


------------------------------<wbr>---------------------

PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.or<wbr>g</a>

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</blockquote></div>

<div>
</div>-- 
<div class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

Stephen

</div>
</div>


<fieldset class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre>------------------------------<wbr>---------------------
PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_5561462196125305301m_2453982024417697466moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.or<wbr>g</a>
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</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
------------------------------<wbr>---------------------

PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.or<wbr>g</a>

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</blockquote></div>

<div>
</div>-- 
<div class="m_5561462196125305301gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

Stephen

</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div>


<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="">---------------------------------------------------
PLUG-discuss mailing list - <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org">PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></pre>

</blockquote>
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