<div dir="ltr">Walter,<div><br></div><div>Thanks for chiming in. I, for the most part agree with you. </div><div><br></div><div>If you read my context, I said "others have contacted me with a long laundry list" "including sexual harassment" (which was the term used by the individual contacting me). While an assumption that the women in PLUG are only interested to interact (with Hans) for the purposes of personal intimacy (as evidenced by the repeated action of calling attention to a wedding ring to multiple women) is not in it's definition "sexual harassment", it might be considered to be rude or inappropriate and and indication "gender bias" in PLUG roles. I clearly said I had "stayed out of the controversy, if you can read context?</div><div><br></div><div>And Walter, I referenced the experience with limits to communication with Hans because he said I had "<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px">been acting as a seperate group for years". It is contextually appropriate to bring up such unprofessional behavior related to communication with PLUG decision makers. This arbitrary decision was made by Hans alone [like everything in PLUG]).</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px">In truth the whole thing most probably boils down to scheduling and limitations to the PLUG website CMS for repeated events or events that occur concurrently.</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"> </span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Walter Mack <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wmack@componentsw.com" target="_blank">wmack@componentsw.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>Lisa,<br>
<br>
to me, being someone who has a good relationship with PLUG and
Hans, I feel that your post is offensive, not just to Hans, but to
everyone who considers PLUG to be a positive influence for the
greater metro Phoenix area. <br>
<br>
Can the functioning of PLUG be improved? Of course, like almost
everything. I for my part appreciate the work PLUG (and by
extension Hans) is doing, and given the demands of our individual
lives, I believe it is commendable!<br>
<br>
Regarding your claims of sexual harassment, you might want to
consider its definition (which, as you might now, governs the
workplace). I found this link <br>
<a href="http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm" target="_blank">http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm</a> From the
information I have, it seems unlikely that what you describe would
qualify for sexual harassment!<br>
<br>
I think your post abundantly shows your displeasure with the way
things are, and you don't have to repeat it any more. If you have
such a low opinion of matters relating to PLUG, you always have
the options to either branch out on your own, or find an
organization with which you can have a better relationship.<br>
<br>
I wish you lots of success with the hackfest and other efforts you
undertake, and I hope you are sufficiently motivated by their
benefits, and can accept others making decisions about calendar
entries that you disagree with.<br>
<br>
Walter<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11/30/2014 08:22 AM, Lisa Kachold wrote:<br>
</div></div></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="h5">
<div dir="ltr">Hans/(All),
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PLUG (aka Hans [since actually no leadership was ever
allowed] is going to have to state the rules under which you
are "dismissing" via schedule removal a healthy regular
popular venue. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PLUG (aka Hans "Luft") is going to have to reference when
those rules were published and when they were delivered to
me. </div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>EVERYONE has historically had their own website, because
PLUG does not allow:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1) Specific wording in announcements.</div>
<div>2) Submitting additional announcements and extensive
innovative content.</div>
<div>3) Presentation postings.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Examples of other historic users (in good standing) with
their own websites to support their presentations and
community endeavors include:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ryan Rix</div>
<div>Alan Dayley</div>
<div>Joseph Sinclair</div>
<div>Brian Cluff</div>
<div>Alexander Henry</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>The PLUG (lack of structure and rules/guidelines)
consistent with other cities of comparable sizes (specific
examples are Seattle, Los Angeles and Portland) has kept
the group from becoming all that a LUG can be. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Older retired penguins have devoted thousands of hours
and dollars each year purchasing their own equipment for
community venues like Installfest without anyone in PLUG
"leadership" even getting a 501(c)3 rider under another
PLUG to allow income tax relief.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Here's a long list of past
discussions that echo these limitations and issues:</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><a href="http://208.77.223.83/lurker/message/20100205.085425.dbace92f.en.html" target="_blank"><br>
http://208.77.223.83/lurker/message/20100205.085425.dbace92f.en.html</a><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><a href="http://208.77.223.83/lurker/message/20130508.020509.d70d1744.en.html" target="_blank">http://208.77.223.83/lurker/message/20130508.020509.d70d1744.en.html</a><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><a href="http://208.77.223.83/lurker/message/20090806.163922.37c4d455.en.html" target="_blank">http://208.77.223.83/lurker/message/20090806.163922.37c4d455.en.html</a><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><a href="http://208.77.223.83/lurker/message/20101108.063046.7219d889.en.html" target="_blank">http://208.77.223.83/lurker/message/20101108.063046.7219d889.en.html</a></div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="font-family:arial;font-size:small">The
ramifications of PLUG (aka Hans "Luft") limiting
announcements and venues (like the HackFest) that
promote continuing educational schools (other than Mesa
Community College [where he has been adjunct teacher])
are obvious.</span><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px">The
ramifications of PLUG (aka Hans "Luft") "dropping" a 7
year successful event like the HackFest is HUGE.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px">I
have been long contacted by members active for many years
who want support to backup recommendations to disband the
PLUG (or remove "Presidential dictatorship") with a long
laundry list of reasons from sexual harassment (Example:
Hans raising his wedding ring clad finger to women as they
wait to speak with him about PLUG matters during public
community events [which I have experienced twice myself])
to outright misuse of funding ( [tee shirts and donations
from local businesses] and PLUG interns/students raising
money for sister project ABLEConf) as well as
inappropriate steering to classes at Mesa Community
College during "OpenSource" community venues.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px">I
have stayed out of escalation of those issues to other
authorities, but "Silence is DEATH" and a Linux Users
Group where membership live in threat of social ostracism
and promote via "inner circle relationships" (or make
decisions like drop a healthy venue without written rules
or warning) is nothing more than a "GANG" and is destined
to die.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px">1)
Please show me the rules under which removal of the
HackFests from the calendar was made? If there was a
scheduling issue, why was I not called or allowed to
reschedule? Our security community and active interns
have been historically very changeable and this could be
easily arranged at DeVry University who also provide a
rack at OneNeck.</div>
<div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"> </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">2) Please show me the rules that
state posting a discussion to more than one mailing list
with the same content is disallowed? It is not on any of
the mailing list <a href="http://phxlinux.org" target="_blank">phxlinux.org</a> pages? </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">3) And while we are talking about it,
please show me the rules (in any PLUG) that state that we
can't have TWO PLUG EVENTS on the same day? Is that because
the website php CMS software won't allow it? [/LAUGH]</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">I have a HackFest iPhone and Android
app ready (which can be released in the next week) to submit
to Google Play and Apple Store. I will happily leave the <a href="http://phxlinux.org" target="_blank">phxlinux.org</a>
and PLUG name out of that code.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Thanks for "allowing me" to continue
to announce the HackFests on the mailing lists. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Happy ThanksGiving</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 1:08 AM,
der.hans <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:PLUGd@lufthans.com" target="_blank">PLUGd@lufthans.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Am
29. Nov, 2014 schwätzte Lisa Kachold so:<br>
<br>
moin moin Lisa,<span><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">I
was curious as to why you have removed the Hackfests
(2nd Saturday of<br>
every month) afrom the PLUG Calendar?<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span>
You've been acting as a seperate group for years. You
have your own web<br>
site and mailing list for your group.<br>
</blockquote>
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
You may continue announcing your events on the list, but
please stop<br>
cross-posting to multiple lists.<br>
<br>
ciao,<br>
<br>
der.hans
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Hackfests
have been going strong since 2008 and have
students from ITT and<br>
strong support from DeVry where instructors
provide extra credit to their<br>
security students for attendance.<br>
<br>
DeVry University provides a rack for PLUG use
(providing it is actually<br>
used in context with student related open source
activities) at OneNeck<br>
which is populated with a VMWare ESXi 5.5 server,
OpenVPN server, Security<br>
Onion, Metasploitable and other images for
demonstration purposes, all of<br>
which has been built entirely with community
contributed assets and intern<br>
effort. We contribute Kali CD's for lab
demonstration use, promotional tee<br>
shirts and shared DefCon videos each year.<br>
<br>
We have a large following of local security
professionals, with visits from<br>
University of Phoenix, Palo Verde Nuclear,
Department of the Army and<br>
GoDaddy staff.<br>
<br>
I have received no notice related to any new
requirements or change?<br>
<br>
I have posted monthly announcements to the PLUG
Announce list since 2008<br>
and have never been notified of any other PLUG
requirements?<br>
<br>
Please add this great linux security lab venue
back to the PLUG Schedule.<br>
<br>
2nd Saturday of every month 11:00 - 2:00 PM.<br>
DeVry University<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
-- <br>
# <a href="http://www.LuftHans.com/" target="_blank">http://www.LuftHans.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.PhxLinux.org/" target="_blank">http://www.PhxLinux.org/</a><br>
# A Polish friend of mine got an offer for a free
account from AOL. The<br>
# login ID was "HELLO" and the passwd "CYMBAL". She
says "cymbal" is like<br>
# a Polish word for "sucker". 'Hello sucker', a
greeting from AOHell :).</font></span></blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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