<div dir="ltr">Wow, this is really good input!!<div><br>My focus today is with regards to the installfest HOWTO and the installfest discussion that is going to happen, I think, Tonight.</div><div><br>Of course, I agree that there is ample opportunity for more than just one LUG here in the valley who wants to move forward with Non profit status and strong leadership with voting, etc. My past experience with LUGs is that each one is different but usually had good motivation and ethics. Unfortunately, I see a lot of LUGs with issues these days as benevolent dictators have become BDFL. </div>
<div><br></div><div>When people stop coming out and participating or people become frustrated due to politics, that is when I (personally - IMHO) believe the LUG is not as successful as it could be.</div><div><br></div><div>
When installfests and LUGs are not using the HOWTOs as a guide, it makes sense that the LUG is not as successful or the installfest is not as successful as it could and very well should be. </div><div><br></div><div>The HOWTOs are there as a guide for success!</div>
<div><br></div><div>Any Installfest following the HOWTO can be a success without hours of discussion or debate. </div><div>Removing bias parties with self interest is really imperative.</div><div>The installfest and the LUG should really be a welcome and warm environment.</div>
<div><br></div><div>For example, we had one member volunteer who has not returned for the past 2 installfests after he was "scolded" by an Ubuntu LoCo member for installing a Windows lookalike theme on his own Linux machine for his brother. This happened in front of other attendees and installers. Why the rudeness? Fear of liability? Still, why the rude tone? It is unnecessary! Now, I don't know why this member stopped attending. There could be another reason. However, it doesn't look so good that he was scolded rudely and then never returned. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Just for the record, I did NOT agree with the comment last LUG meeting where the LUG BDFL - Hans, dissuaded use of HTTPS EVERYWHERE from the EFF.</div><div>I understand that maybe Hans doesn't think that people in that crowd could use it properly or something. However, if that is the case, why not demonstrate this for proper use. Perhaps he did not want to promote HTTPS EVERYWHERE.</div>
<div><br></div><div>To not promote freedom at a LUG, seems unLUGish to me. </div><div><br></div><div>Of course, that's just my 2 cents. </div><div> </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 10:29 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:techlists@phpcoderusa.com" target="_blank">techlists@phpcoderusa.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="">On 2014-08-19 12:10, Lisa Kachold wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Well if it's that hard to maintain a non-profit how does the San Diego<br>
LUG, and the Portland and Seattle LUGS manage? <br>
<br>
How does Heatsync labs do it? It is EASY! <br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I cannot answer that. We are a different group and maybe what is important to those groups is not important to PLUG. Have you contacted those goups to see what they think after the fact?<br>
<br>
Maybe it has something to do with being in AZ. AZ is more conservative and tends to like less oversight especially government oversight. By becoming a non-profit PLUG would become a government entity with all that comes with that.<br>
<br>
Please keep in mind it does not matter to me either way. I responded just to share. If the group wants to incorporate I am along for the ride. If doing so does not change PLUG in any significant way then it is not an issue for me. If, however incorporating causes problems, then it effects all of us.<div class="">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Why would we, who can<br>
read any HOWTO and do any technical thing, think we would need either<br>
a CPU or a lawyer?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
This is a legal issue and I'm sure it requires the ongoing expertise of the experts. Going it alone is risky.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="h5">
<br>
On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 8:40 AM, <<a href="mailto:techlists@phpcoderusa.com" target="_blank">techlists@phpcoderusa.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="h5">
Around 1999, while living in Tucson, I joined PLUG and the Tucson<br>
Free Unix Group (TFUG) lists. For years we went back and forth<br>
about formalizing TFUG. We had at least one meeting and there was<br>
lots of discussions on the list. After several years it was<br>
decided that no structure was the best structure.<br>
<br>
You bring up a couple of the benefits, what about the down side.<br>
<br>
Creating a non profit takes a lot of work. And once that status<br>
has been reached there is on going requirements that probably<br>
require the help of a lawyer and a CPA.<br>
<br>
Then there is the issue of ownership and control. This process<br>
could start out with good intentions and could turn evil real quick.<br>
<br>
Or maybe the maintainers quit. Who steps in to take over? What<br>
might their intent be?<br>
<br>
Structure can be good, however I think most of us just want to<br>
enjoy Linux and Linux related stuff and be free in doing so.<br>
<br>
I've been a member of this list for about 15 years and the people<br>
on this list have helped me immensely. I appreciate all the help you<br>
folks have given me and I'm sure I would not have gotten as far<br>
without your help.<br>
<br>
Keith<br>
<br>
On 2014-08-19 03:02, Lisa Kachold wrote:<br>
<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="h5">
Great idea! I doubt that you will get them (him) to agree to<br>
follow<br>
anything that includes rules and structure to allow for success<br>
(& a<br>
large healthy LUG). As long as people are arguing minutia they<br>
will<br>
never notice all the secondary gain that keeps successful<br>
professionals uninvolved and uninterested. In 2002 I suggested<br>
Nonprofit status so people running the LUG functions and donating<br>
funds and equipment can write off reasonable tax exceptions. I<br>
wrote<br>
the whole process up in the discuss list which was the impetus<br>
for<br>
heatsink labs in Mesa to jump to grants and success through<br>
internships, etc. I told Hans I would do it all myself and he<br>
laughed in my face. <br>
<br>
Anyone who has lived in a comparably sized city knows what a<br>
healthy<br>
LUG is capable of simply by following direction already decreed<br>
in<br>
various guides.<br>
<br>
So, after the installfest conversation in PLUG IRC yesterday<br>
regarding<br>
installfest matters, I noticed that a lot of the items discussed<br>
are<br>
actually guidelines already presented in the Linux Installfest<br>
HOWTO.<br>
<br>
Many improvements to the PLUG Installfest can be made by<br>
following<br>
these guidelines.<br>
<br>
Why are we beating a dead horse...<br>
<br>
Many of these items are part of the HOWTO already.<br>
<br>
I propose the Linux Installfest HOWTO be used as a guide for<br>
discussion and installfests. Has everyone had a chance to look<br>
these<br>
over?<br>
Can we agree to use the HOWTO as a guideline?<br>
<br>
I believe these installfest items will be on the table for<br>
discussion<br>
tomorrow evening. Is that correct?<br>
<br>
If so, I will be attending but not exactly at 7pm. You can either<br>
fill<br>
me in or wait. I'm thinking 8ish at the latest.<br>
<br>
As far as I am concerned, I think one thing we can improve and<br>
hopefully agree upon is following the installfest HOWTO as a<br>
guideline.<br>
<br>
See you tomorrow!!!<br>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
Marcia<br>
<br>
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