<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><br>People must want their freedom first. Just go to any Tea Party rally. You'll find several hundred. <br><br>If the governed is not willing to effect change the governing class will do whatever it wants. <br><br>------------------------<br>
Keith Smith<br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 7/3/13, Sam Kreimeyer <i><skreimey@gmail.com></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Sam Kreimeyer <skreimey@gmail.com><br>Subject: Re: OT: Secret spying on your Internet activity?<br>To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org><br>Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 1:25 PM<br><br><div id="yiv363584264"><div dir="ltr"><div>Eric, I'm in the Army, so, in part, I represent that force. I would never be complicit in any operation against US citizens. I would take my chances being locked up in Ft. Leavenworth if it came down to it. Force is definitely real, but the authority to use it exists only in our minds. If nobody is willing to pull the trigger in the hypothetical scenario you posited, and I know that I am far from the only one whom would refuse such orders, then there is no threat. If we raise
children that believe in reason over superstition and trust in ethics over authority (and live that way ourselves when we can), eventually there will be no thugs left. While it isn't fast or glamorous change, it is something we can work towards that makes a positive difference.<br>
<br></div>Most of the killing, waterboarding, etc. are only possible because Muslims have been so dehumanized in military culture (and in US culture at large). All Muslims are Hajj, and Hajj is a cowardly, murdering pedophile (sometimes true, but most just want us to leave them alone), so any violence toward them is deserved. Convincing soldiers to to see their family, neighbors and countrymen that way is much more difficult.<br>
</div><div class="yiv363584264gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="yiv363584264gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Eric Cope <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:eric.cope@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=eric.cope@gmail.com">eric.cope@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv363584264gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div>Don't forget they have more and bigger guns than you. Force is real. Threat of force is real. Don't believe me? Let's waterboard you until you agree. </div>
<div><div class="yiv363584264h5"><div><br></div><div><br><br>On Jul 2, 2013, at 7:13 PM, Sam il Kreimeyer <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:skreimey@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=skreimey@gmail.com">skreimey@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite">
<div><div dir="ltr"><div>Lisa, I've been trying to make that point for a long time. Power is ultimately only what you believe it is. The NSA (a fictional abstraction of self-responsible individuals), is only as powerful as people's belief in its authority and willingness to act on those beliefs.<br>
<br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6b70TUbdfs">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6b70TUbdfs</a><br></div>This video provides a nice graphical representation of the reality of the situation.<br></div>
<div class="yiv363584264gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="yiv363584264gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Eric Cope <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:eric.cope@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=eric.cope@gmail.com">eric.cope@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="yiv363584264gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">seems on topic to this off topic discussion...<div><br></div><div><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/text-of-a-july-2-2013-letter-to-edward-snowden-from-his-father-and-fathers-attorney/2013/07/02/e62ff87e-e350-11e2-bffd-37a36ddab820_story.html">http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/text-of-a-july-2-2013-letter-to-edward-snowden-from-his-father-and-fathers-attorney/2013/07/02/e62ff87e-e350-11e2-bffd-37a36ddab820_story.html</a><span><font color="#888888"><br>
</font></span></div><span><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>Eric</div></font></span></div><div><div><div class="yiv363584264gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="yiv363584264gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 4:01 PM, keith smith <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:klsmith2020@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=klsmith2020@yahoo.com">klsmith2020@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv363584264gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font:inherit;" valign="top"><br>Just say no to FEEMA! If you say no to ObamaCare it will cost you some tax dollars (fine). If you say no to gun control you might go to jail. <br>
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Keith Smith<br><br>--- On <b>Tue, 7/2/13, <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:skreimey@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=skreimey@gmail.com">skreimey@gmail.com</a> <i><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:skreimey@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=skreimey@gmail.com">skreimey@gmail.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px;"><br>From: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:skreimey@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=skreimey@gmail.com">skreimey@gmail.com</a> <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:skreimey@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=skreimey@gmail.com">skreimey@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: OT: Secret spying on your Internet activity?<br>To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>><br>Date: Tuesday, July 2, 2013, 8:55 AM<br>
<br><div><span style="font-family:Arial;">Writing my reps didn't accomplish much during TARP. Finding ways to not participate in or support policies you oppose in your daily life is probably the most effective form of activism.<br>
<br>Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone<br><br><br><div>----- Reply message -----<br>From: "keith smith" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:klsmith2020@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=klsmith2020@yahoo.com">klsmith2020@yahoo.com</a>><br>To: "Ken" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:parabellum7@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=parabellum7@yahoo.com">parabellum7@yahoo.com</a>>, "Main PLUG discussion list"
<<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>><br>Subject: OT: Secret spying on your Internet activity?<br>Date: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 5:01 PM<br><br></div></span><br>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font:inherit;" valign="top"><br><br>I would vet them first. You can always call, email, or fax your us rep and us senators.<br><br>This looks like a Gov site. If it is I'd stay away. <br>
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Keith Smith<br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 7/1/13, Ken <i><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:parabellum7@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=parabellum7@yahoo.com">parabellum7@yahoo.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px;">
<br>From: Ken <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:parabellum7@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=parabellum7@yahoo.com">parabellum7@yahoo.com</a>><br>Subject: OT: Secret spying on your Internet activity?<br>To: "<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org">plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org</a>><br>
Date: Monday, July 1, 2013, 1:17 PM<br><br><div><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;"><div><span>Are these online petitions worth signing? Or is it just a way to get your email addy on more spam lists?</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;"><br><span></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">
<br><span></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;"><span>-K<br></span></div><div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">
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<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> ----- Forwarded Message -----<br> <font face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://Change.org">Change.org</a> <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mail@change.org" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=mail@change.org">mail@change.org</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:parabellum7@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="/mc/compose?to=parabellum7@yahoo.com">parabellum7@yahoo.com</a> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, July 1, 2013 9:39 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Secret spying on your Internet activity?<br>
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<b>Ken</b> - There's a new petition taking off on <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://Change.org">Change.org</a>, and we think you might be interested in signing it:
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Eric Holder: Allow tech companies to publish NSA PRISM data
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By Alec F.
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Sign Alec's Petition
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<div>After a leak of documents from the National Security Agency showed that a secret program called PRISM allows widespread <span>surveillance</span> of U.S. citizens' phone and internet activities with some of the world's biggest tech corporations, the nation is concerned and confused about our privacy rights. </div>
<div>President Obama and the NSA have stated that widespread spying of Americans is not taking place and that the government is only requesting certain data from these companies. There is an easy way to show if this is true and that companies like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, and Twitter have taken the commendable step of requesting that the NSA allow them to publish the records of government data requests in their company transparency reports. </div>
<div><span>In part, Google's letter states:</span></div>
<div><i><span>Assertions in the press that our compliance with these requests gives the U.S. government unfettered access to our users’ data are simply untrue. However, government nondisclosure obligations regarding the number of FISA national security requests that Google receives, as well as the number of accounts covered by those requests, fuel that speculation.</span></i><br>
<i><br>We therefore ask you to help make it possible for Google to publish in our <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://email.change.org/wf/click?upn=1mmeex-2FjZn-2FwcNsRwSa6Vb1BAjT-2Fy11qFaLyn60GQxdkFjG0h2LCmON6FueK8875hyVQ3-2F2RksE7Cv2-2B5N91TVNKfrMASCuSq3bk3Ud3YmM-3D_waxN-2FayPhGkz6DM9IZfKtgQuTrpSJsM0Hjbo7D7f9hnMAzY0CJjYky-2FGHGgHLrljIG6EN-2BTwh2f-2BXid6IYhdpgN7eW4Dx9h6RnnmfnTX56iVX-2BZX-2BDEWnffKuFlnpedWSURcmzxAQMRbTmQ-2BPWnDEJ59Ki2zUIhWLGQsI8bvwZYGNwYnRrW2bO9QaAs6G-2B20KY8kzYXXnJDr8y5h-2BStokSxoOXa4RvjWSE0avMHtXIaRHrEhVEzdMxIoG6WmPm3gp8biOvJ63f-2FjG-2Fkf-2BKudew-3D-3D">Transparency Report</a> aggregate numbers of national security requests, including FISA disclosures—in terms of both the number we receive and their scope. Google’s numbers would clearly show that our compliance with these requests falls far short of the claims being made. Google has nothing to hide. </i></div>
<div><span>The government allowed Google to start reporting the number of</span><span> </span>national security letters<span> </span><span>they received requesting data earlier this year, but they are still barred from releasing information about Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) orders. The requests for this data often comes in the form of secret court orders that not only force these companies to give data but also make it impossible for them to discuss even the basic details. That should change.</span></div>
<div><span>By allowing these companies to include this information in their transparency reports, the government will be giving American citizens at least some of the insight we deserve about how our daily activities like emails and Google searches are being tracked by the government. </span></div>
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