Why is PHP not a "real" language?

Sun Aug 28 16:59:25 MST 2022

On 2022-08-28 02:23, Andrew McRobb via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> Just my take on it, someone who used PHP very heavily from 2015 to
> 2018 and transfered to Go.  My views maybe dated at this point...
> 
> It has its place in the ecosystem, there is no way around it, but it's
> always going to be that language for engineering websites, that's it.

And that is what I do.  However it is also used for server 
administration.  Plesk is an example.

> It was mostly considered bloated and not really seen as good as using
> Python in Unix environments. Python does package management right, and
> you can go far beyond that if you wanted which makes it a amazing tool
> and it's usually pre-installed.
> 
> As someone who develops API code using Go as a daily, I haven't looked
> back at PHP since. GO does so many things right in comparison to PHP.
> It makes writting APIs a snap and infrastructures are much simpler and
> you can ship binaries! But for rendering websites, it has its
> weaknesses and heavily depends on template engines if you aren't
> writting a single web page application. This is maybe when you depend
> on PHP, but front-ends like React and Angular have came so far that
> having to mix front-end and backend code shouldn't be necessary these
> days.

I use JavaScript/AJAX in the client and PHP on the server. Works Well.  
Do not know much about these other languages.

> 
> Small Rant: I basically came to terms that no one language is always
> the answer to everything and the circle jerks of languages is just a
> waste of time, imho. Use what you love, if you like it and it works
> and can scale to demand, good for you! But never also find yourself
> stuck in a echo chamber, learn some Erlang, Rust. See what else is out
> there. Heck you could find out your a Ruby developer at the end of the
> day.
> 

At my ripe old age I will probably stay with PHP until I die.  
Interesting advice, thanks!!

> On Sun, Aug 28, 2022, 1:09 AM David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss
> <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
> 
>> My opinion might not count for much since I don’t really program
>> with PHP, although I spent about a year with V4 in 2000. I do enjoy
>> looking at the language updates and seeing what small steps the PHP
>> language Gods take each time it’s updated. In contrast to C++, PHP
>> seems to be evolving at a snail’s pace.
>> 
>> The issues about interpreted (aka, “scripting”) languages is
>> bogus. Python is now the #1 most popular programming language in the
>> world, and it’s interpreted. So there goes that theory.
>> 
>> https://skilldeck.org/learning/best-programming-language-to-learn
>> [2]
>> 
>> My take on PHP is that it has been in a stuck-in-the-middle state
>> for >20 years, between being a “structured/procedural
>> programming” and “object-oriented” language. Kind of like C++
>> was before V1.1 or so was introduced.
>> 
>> Still, while you can use both to create OO code, you can also use
>> both to write horrid code that runs just fine and doesn’t use any
>> of the class-related language constructs.
>> 
>> Over the years, C++ has been embraced by the OOP community and you
>> don’t see anybody demanding that C++ compilers be able to compile
>> any old C code. The C standard is still evolving and it keeps taking
>> on bits and pieces of things inspired by C++, but it’s really
>> still not an OOP language.
>> 
>> But I’ve heard PHP coders constantly complaining about the fact
>> that the use of classes in PHP kills performance. Yeah, as if Python
>> users think that’s even relevant! Python is 100% OOP right out of
>> the gate, and they seem proud of it. Both are interpreted, and both
>> are probably about as efficient compared with a compiled language.
>> (Are there any performance comparisons between equivalent PHP and
>> Python apps?)
>> 
>> If an OOP-based interpreted language can attain the "#1 most popular
>> language” slot and nobody cares about the little bit of overhead
>> that the OO part imposes on the execution time, then perhaps it’s
>> time for PHP coders to suck-it-up and learn how to REALLY code in
>> OOP idioms! Until then, it’s the PHP programming community
>> that’s shooting itself in the feet, not the language. Get rid of
>> the “holes” in the language that allow it to process old code
>> that breaks all of the encapsulation rules and make the use of
>> classes more direct rather than forcing the use of squirrly syntax
>> that is constantly reminding people “this isn’t really an
>> object-oriented language … but you can use it that way … IF YOU
>> INSIST”.
>> 
>> This is 2022. Nobody teaches plain old structured/procedural
>> programming any more — they don’t even say they’re teaching
>> OOP, it’s just what all modern languages support today. Except
>> PHP, which cannot seem to decide if it’s ever going to grow up and
>> let go of its procedural roots.
>> 
>> (Perhaps a big part of the problem is all of the old procedural PHP
>> code that people are scared to refactor. So instead they just start
>> over in Python?)
>> 
>> -David Schwartz
>> 
>>> On Aug 27, 2022, at 7:11 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
>>> <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just in time to add another thread that might be as intense as the
>>> sysd...etc thread.
>>> 
>>> For years I have heard that people say PHP is not a real language.
>>> 
>>> One guy says interpreted languages are not real programming
>>> languages, they are scripting languages.  I guess way back when I
>>> was an xBase developer I must have not been a real programmer.
>>> Back in the day The only compiled xBase was Clipper Summer 87 by
>>> Nantucket Corp.  I think it was possible to compile xBase code but
>>> I never did except with Clipper Summer 87.  I think Visual Fox was
>>> compiled...
>>> 
>>> Another says the barrier to entry makes it possible for
>>> non-professional programmers to get hired and to mess up the code
>>> base.  Isn't that a hiring manager's issue?
>>> 
>>> I think PHP is a great language and a lot of others must think so
>>> too.
>>> 
>>> I really liked the decade long ride with PHP 5. I think 7 brought
>>> some good changes in the area of speed and the removal of Register
>>> globals.
>>> 
>>> PHP must be doing something right because it is run by upwards of
>>> 80% of the websites on the Internet.
>>> 
>>> I do think the PHP team is moving too fast.  We now have version
>>> 8.
>>> 
>>> So what is wrong with PHP and where are we going in such a hurry?
>>> 
>>> And finally why does PHP have to be anything but simple stupid?
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