PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 194, Issue 2

Tue Aug 3 15:13:45 MST 2021

 I did not realize that there were still people who claimed to believe that
there is no global warming. Makes me wonder if there might be someone in
the group that believe that the Earth is flat. If you want to get more
answers about global warming, and also see the reasoning behind the
evidence, you might want to look at <climate.nasa.gov>,

>Global warming is junk science!

You are vastly in the minority with that opinion, and that's assuming that
you have the crednetials to make that determination on your own. Greater
than 97% of all published articles on Climate change agree that the Climate
is getting warmer, that is is 95% likely to be due to human caused sources,
and will continue to get worse unless humans change hoew they effect the
climate. <
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change#:~:text=Nearly%20all%20actively%20publishing%20climate,consensus%20to%20be%20at%20100%25
.>

>Why is the summer so cool this year?

Your facts are uncoordinated. This summer is NOT cool, nor was last summer.
According to US News and World Report <
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arizona/articles/2021-07-02/phoenixs-dry-heat-also-sets-record-for-hottest-june-ever
>

The year June set a new record as the hottest June ever, so I am not sure
where your comment about this being an unusually mild summer comes from.

Reported else where July 2020 was the hottest month ever until August ended
ad replaced it as the hottest month ever in Phoenix, and the record for
most days of 100 or higher was also broken in 2020 <azcentral>

Also, remember to keep climate separate from weather in your mind. That
means that the record highs for this year and last year don't mean that
global warming is occurring, only that weather extremes may be the cause.
But when you have year after year of setting new all-time-records you have
climate change.

>Weather trends. The science tells us there are weather trends.

“Fortunately, consistent temperature estimates made by paleoclimatologists
(scientists who study Earth’s past climate using environmental clues like
ice cores and tree rings) provide scientists with context for understanding
today’s observed warming of Earth’s climate, which has no historic
parallel. “ <
https://climate.nasa.gov/blog/3071/the-raw-truth-on-global-temperature-records/
>

Weather trends exist, but are overridden by climate. Climate trends in and
out of Ice Ages, but today we are already warming faster than any post ice
age measured, faster than _any_ known warming cycle. That is not a trend,
and it is not an in-and-out of ice age cycle. We are entering whole new
climate patterns.

>There was a mini ice age before there where cars.

See above. The climate is changing faster now than it did for the mini ice
age.

>The ice caps are not melting

Your facts are uncoordinated. The north polar ice cap (arctic ice cap) is
shrinking at roughly 10% per decade, the rate has been increasing except
for the 7 years, but current estimates are that this year’s summer minimum
will match the previous record low. <
https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/arctic-sea-ice>

>and the oceans rising.

The sea levels have been climbing for decades already. It is not just
predicitions but also past measurements. So far the rate of rise in sea
levels is only in milimeter per year, but building over time that is
centimeters per decade and meters per century. The rate of rise is also
increasing. Currently most of the melting is floating ice (arctic and
antartic ice shelves) but as land based ice melts (Greenland and Antartic
glaciers) the rate will be much faster.<
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-sea-level
>

>LA is still here.

The sea level rise since 1900 has only 20 centimeters, so you are correct,
LA is still there. But for east coasters even 20 cm on top of storm surge
does make a difference, and it will mean more days each year that Venice
streets are under water.

>For 30 years you have been telling us

I believe 30 years of warnings prior to now is possible.

>in 12 years

I disbelieve that anyone said 12 years unless they were either very
mistaken or giving out disinformation to make the global warming proponents
seem irrational. Please cite some sources for this claim.

>the earth is going to burn up.

I also disbelieve anyone claimed the Earth would "Burn Up". Reach
temperatures that would make some areas that are inhabited now become
unlivable and areas that currently grow food become to drought ridden to
produce food I concurr with. Actually burning up sounds like another case
of trying to make someone look irrational.

>Just because a car heats up mean nothing more that do not leave anything
in your car that would be adversely effected by the summer sun and the
increased interior temperature.

I think they were only using it as a common, well known example of how a
given setup such as glass, closed car interior, sun light leads unavoidably
to higher temperatures, just like increased carbon dioxide in the
atmosphere, atmosphere stuck to planet, planet gets warmer.

>Why does the sun not heat up your car during the winder? Is it global
cooling?

I don't know what kind of car you drive, but parking mine in sun light
_always_ makes it get warmer inside. The only difference is that in the
winter time that is not a bad thing.

>We know too little about the weather to determine what is happening. That
is what the scientists say.

Actually we know a great deal about weather, otherwise we could not make
any forecasts at all. Unfortunately one of those things that we know about
it is that it is sensitive to the 'butterfly effect' which makes it chaotic
and day-to-day weather hard to forecast. But climate is weather averaged
over time or area, and it is very easy to average all the weather for a
given year to see how the climate is changing <
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/weather_climate.html>

>What we do know is there is weather cycles and trends.

"Fortunately, consistent temperature estimates made by paleoclimatologists
(scientists who study Earth’s past climate using environmental clues like
ice cores and tree rings) provide scientists with context for understanding
today’s observed warming of Earth’s climate, which has no historic
parallel."

<
https://climate.nasa.gov/blog/3071/the-raw-truth-on-global-temperature-records/
>

>An what about all those hacked emails years ago where the weather

scientists where encouraging publishing false data.

"The Climatic Research Unit email controversy (also known as
"Climategate")[2][3] began in November 2009 with the hacking of a server at
the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia (UEA) by
an external attacker,[4][5] copying thousands of emails and computer files
(the Climatic Research Unit documents) to various internet locations
several weeks before the Copenhagen Summit on climate change."

"FactCheck.org confirmed that climate change deniers misrepresented the
contents of the emails."

" Because of the timing, scientists, policy makers and public relations
experts said that the release of emails was a smear campaign intended to
undermine the climate conference."

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy>

If you are still referring to this as significant, it means that either you
have not done anything to check your facts from over a decade ago, or that
you support the theft of private documents, presenting out of context to
create a smear campaign just before a major, international conference on
setting global policies on climate change mitigation so that you can
discredit the scientist who support global warming without needing to
present _any_ facts to disprove it.

I find it interesting to note that out of 160Mbytes of stolen emails,
documents, and commented climate modeling code the best that they could
come up with two or three things which taken out of context make them seem
like something bad was going on. Of course, if they had really been
falsifying data and conspiring to lock out scientists who did not support
global warming, there would have been vastly more comments of a much
clearer, more detailed nature proving the 'conspiracy'. Since the two or
three little blrubs were all they could find is almost proof itself that
there was nothing going on.

>What is it you wish to achieve? What so you want us to do?

Try to save the World?

Mike Bushroe

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 12:00 PM <plug-discuss-request at lists.phxlinux.org>
wrote:

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> than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..."
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re:
>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>       (Eric Oyen)
>    2. Re:
>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>       (Steve Litt)
>    3. Re:
>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>       (Matthew Crews)
>    4. Re:
>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>       (techlists at phpcoderusa.com)
>    5. Re:
>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>       (techlists at phpcoderusa.com)
>    6. Re:
>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>       (Matthew Crews)
>    7. Re:
>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>       (Matthew Gibson)
>    8. Re:
>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>       (Steve Litt)
>    9. Re:
>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>       (Steve Litt)
>   10. Re:
>
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>       (Matthew Gibson)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Eric Oyen <eric.oyen at icloud.com>
> To: Main PLUG discussion list <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:17:30 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> I was going to go into a long involved essay on this citing many facts and
> figures, but I won’t. You cited these numbers, now show your work with
> sources.
>
> Some of your figures don’t account for changes in population versus use by
> sector or total energy = total used + total wasted. It also doesn’t explain
> how China managed to use over 50% of the planetary supply of coal in 2020
> (more than double that of the US for the same period) And that is just
> coal. (See the fortune article here:
> https://fortune.com/2021/03/29/china-coal-energy-electricity-xi-jinping-2020-ember/)
> and it also doesn’t properly explain energy efficiency taking into account
> usage by sector (see
> https://www.indy100.com/news/the-world-s-most-energy-efficient-countries-7334291
> ). It also doesn’t account for changes in technology in the energy sector,
> in specific changes in technology in the transportation sector since 1965
> (see https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/09/20190930-sivak.html) or
> changes in price per gallon of various fossil fuels since 1965 (see Cost
> of gas the year you were born | The State
> <https://www.thestate.com/news/databases/article68603317.html>).
>
> Now, as for your other points, please show me hard data (in accessible
> format for the blind) over the last 30 years showing actual facts, verified
> data that isn’t cherry picked, padded or otherwise pulled out of thin air)
> on those points. Only then can we have a reasonable discussion. So far, you
> haven’t really shown much on those other points.
>
> SO, please, show your data and show your source that supports it. Talking
> points (regardless of political leaning) are just not acceptable.
>
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Library Dept.
>
>
> On Jul 28, 2021, at 1:13 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700
>
> So, guys, nice little debate we all got snagged into here because of
> some state regulations that would prevent nearly 60 million people
> from owning technologies that would make their lives more convenient.
> Regulations put in place by politicians who know nothing of real
> science and are trying to kiss up to china. Now, where does that leave
> us?
>
>
> It leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard. Boo
> hoo hoo.
>
> What's this fascination with China that you all have? China uses the
> energy equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million
> people, equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the equivalent of
> 18,684 million barrels and has 328 million people, equaling 56.9
> barrels per person.
>
> So here's the question: If some country using almost triple the energy
> per person than your country says *you* are the problem and should cut,
> and they won't do squat until you cut, what would you say to them?
>
> You ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves you
> having lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it leaves you
> with a very hard (and probably considerably foreshortened) second half
> of your life. If you were just born today, by the time you graduate
> college, the world will be rife with climate refugees and water wars,
> and by the time you're 50, if you last that long, the population
> decline will be brutal and pretty universal except for the very rich.
> All because everybody in 2021 said the other guy should cut his
> emissions first.
>
> One more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according to
> them the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as those
> of the EU.
>
> I feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who play
> at a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry for their
> grandchildren.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
> ---------------------------------------------------
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Litt <slitt at troubleshooters.com>
> To: plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 02:36:50 -0400
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> The time to ask for sources was 4 days ago, when I still had the
> websites on my browser.
>
> So I'll just say this: Get inside a car, in the summer sunlight, whose
> windows and doors have been closed for a couple hours. It's hot. Really
> hot. The light from the sun passed through the glass and heated the
> seats and interior, heating them up. The heated surfaces emit a much
> longer wavelength infrared, which is absorbed by the glass instead of
> letting the longer infrared through. So a significant fraction of the
> energy from the sun gets trapped in the car, heating it considerably.
> We all learned that in high school physics. Here's a reference:
>
> https://www.greenerchoices.org/how-does-a-greenhouse-work/
>
> So the remaining question is, does C02 act like glass? Here are some
> cites that say it does:
>
>
> https://earthathome.org/quick-faqs/why-is-carbon-dioxide-called-a-greenhouse-gas/
>
>
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-carbon-dioxide-is-greenhouse-gas/
>
> Listen, I understand your need to look at science through the lens of
> an agenda. The "I got mine, screw everyone else" attitude is quite
> popular these days, causing people to grasp at straws when science
> disagrees with their pet philosophy. But facts are facts, the more C02
> we spew, the hotter Earth gets. And when it gets hot enough, it
> releases the methane gas in the ocean:
>
> https://worldoceanreview.com/en/wor-1/energy/methane-hydrates/
>
> And with the released methane, all of a sudden it gets *a
> lot* hotter. This has happened in some major extinction events:
>
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1871174X16300488
>
> Volcanos were the usual cause. But not this time.
>
> If you don't believe my cites, find some of your own that aren't agenda
> driven.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>
> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:17:30 -0700
>
> >I was going to go into a long involved essay on this citing many facts
> >and figures, but I won’t. You cited these numbers, now show your work
> >with sources.
> >
> >Some of your figures don’t account for changes in population versus
> >use by sector or total energy = total used + total wasted. It also
> >doesn’t explain how China managed to use over 50% of the planetary
> >supply of coal in 2020 (more than double that of the US for the same
> >period) And that is just coal. (See the fortune article here:
> >
> https://fortune.com/2021/03/29/china-coal-energy-electricity-xi-jinping-2020-ember/
> )
> >and it also doesn’t properly explain energy efficiency taking into
> >account usage by sector (see
> >
> https://www.indy100.com/news/the-world-s-most-energy-efficient-countries-7334291
> >). It also doesn’t account for changes in technology in the energy
> >sector, in specific changes in technology in the transportation sector
> >since 1965 (see
> >https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/09/20190930-sivak.html) or
> >changes in price per gallon of various fossil fuels since 1965 (see
> >Cost of gas the year you were born | The State
> ><https://www.thestate.com/news/databases/article68603317.html>).
> >
> >Now, as for your other points, please show me hard data (in accessible
> >format for the blind) over the last 30 years showing actual facts,
> >verified data that isn’t cherry picked, padded or otherwise pulled out
> >of thin air) on those points. Only then can we have a reasonable
> >discussion. So far, you haven’t really shown much on those other
> >points.
> >
> >SO, please, show your data and show your source that supports it.
> >Talking points (regardless of political leaning) are just not
> >acceptable.
> >
> >-Eric
> >From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Library Dept.
> >
> >
> >> On Jul 28, 2021, at 1:13 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
> >> <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700
> >>
> >>> So, guys, nice little debate we all got snagged into here because of
> >>> some state regulations that would prevent nearly 60 million people
> >>> from owning technologies that would make their lives more
> >>> convenient. Regulations put in place by politicians who know
> >>> nothing of real science and are trying to kiss up to china. Now,
> >>> where does that leave us?
> >>
> >> It leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard. Boo
> >> hoo hoo.
> >>
> >> What's this fascination with China that you all have? China uses the
> >> energy equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million
> >> people, equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the
> >> equivalent of 18,684 million barrels and has 328 million people,
> >> equaling 56.9 barrels per person.
> >>
> >> So here's the question: If some country using almost triple the
> >> energy per person than your country says *you* are the problem and
> >> should cut, and they won't do squat until you cut, what would you
> >> say to them?
> >>
> >> You ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves
> >> you having lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it
> >> leaves you with a very hard (and probably considerably
> >> foreshortened) second half of your life. If you were just born
> >> today, by the time you graduate college, the world will be rife with
> >> climate refugees and water wars, and by the time you're 50, if you
> >> last that long, the population decline will be brutal and pretty
> >> universal except for the very rich. All because everybody in 2021
> >> said the other guy should cut his emissions first.
> >>
> >> One more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according to
> >> them the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as
> >> those of the EU.
> >>
> >> I feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who
> >> play at a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry for
> >> their grandchildren.
> >>
> >> SteveT
> >>
> >> Steve Litt
> >> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
> >> Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
> >> ---------------------------------------------------
> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Matthew Crews <mailinglists at mattcrews.com>
> To: plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 05:41:54 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> All this bickering is missing the overall point:
>
> The era of mainstream desktop PCs draining huge amounts of electricity
> is over. The expectation is that we now use power efficient PCs, whether
> we like it or not.
>
> If only the graphics card vendors would make usable high end graphics
> cards that don't require 550W all by itself, and 850W power supplies for
> the whole system.
>
>
> https://www.gamepressure.com/newsroom/geforce-rtx-3090-will-require-850w-power-supply-and-12-pin-plug/zb22f1
>
> Power efficient electronics have been the norm for awhile, and power
> efficiency is a huge deal in laptop PCs and servers (and has been for a
> VERY long time). Its only just now caught up to the desktop PC market.
>
> -Matt
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: techlists at phpcoderusa.com
> To: Main PLUG discussion list <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 07:52:17 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>
>
> Global warming is junk science!  Why is the summer so cool this year?
> Weather trends.  The science tells us there are weather trends.  There
> was a mini ice age before there where cars.  The ice caps are not
> melting and the oceans rising.  LA is still here. For 30 years you have
> been telling us in 12 years the earth is going to burn up.
>
> Just because a car heats up mean nothing more that do not leave anything
> in your car that would be adversely effected by the summer sun and the
> increased interior temperature.
>
> Why does the sun not heat up your car during the winder?  Is it global
> cooling?
>
> We know too little about the weather to determine what is happening.
> That is what the scientists say.
>
> What we do know is there is weather cycles and trends.
>
> An what about all those hacked emails years ago where the weather
> scientists where encouraging publishing false data.
>
> What is it you wish to achieve?  What so you want us to do?
>
>
>
> On 2021-08-01 23:36, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > The time to ask for sources was 4 days ago, when I still had the
> > websites on my browser.
> >
> > So I'll just say this: Get inside a car, in the summer sunlight, whose
> > windows and doors have been closed for a couple hours. It's hot. Really
> > hot. The light from the sun passed through the glass and heated the
> > seats and interior, heating them up. The heated surfaces emit a much
> > longer wavelength infrared, which is absorbed by the glass instead of
> > letting the longer infrared through. So a significant fraction of the
> > energy from the sun gets trapped in the car, heating it considerably.
> > We all learned that in high school physics. Here's a reference:
> >
> > https://www.greenerchoices.org/how-does-a-greenhouse-work/
> >
> > So the remaining question is, does C02 act like glass? Here are some
> > cites that say it does:
> >
> >
> https://earthathome.org/quick-faqs/why-is-carbon-dioxide-called-a-greenhouse-gas/
> >
> >
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-carbon-dioxide-is-greenhouse-gas/
> >
> > Listen, I understand your need to look at science through the lens of
> > an agenda. The "I got mine, screw everyone else" attitude is quite
> > popular these days, causing people to grasp at straws when science
> > disagrees with their pet philosophy. But facts are facts, the more C02
> > we spew, the hotter Earth gets. And when it gets hot enough, it
> > releases the methane gas in the ocean:
> >
> > https://worldoceanreview.com/en/wor-1/energy/methane-hydrates/
> >
> > And with the released methane, all of a sudden it gets *a
> > lot* hotter. This has happened in some major extinction events:
> >
> > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1871174X16300488
> >
> > Volcanos were the usual cause. But not this time.
> >
> > If you don't believe my cites, find some of your own that aren't agenda
> > driven.
> >
> > SteveT
> >
> > Steve Litt
> > Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
> > Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
> >
> > Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:17:30 -0700
> >
> >> I was going to go into a long involved essay on this citing many facts
> >> and figures, but I won’t. You cited these numbers, now show your work
> >> with sources.
> >>
> >> Some of your figures don’t account for changes in population versus
> >> use by sector or total energy = total used + total wasted. It also
> >> doesn’t explain how China managed to use over 50% of the planetary
> >> supply of coal in 2020 (more than double that of the US for the same
> >> period) And that is just coal. (See the fortune article here:
> >>
> https://fortune.com/2021/03/29/china-coal-energy-electricity-xi-jinping-2020-ember/
> )
> >> and it also doesn’t properly explain energy efficiency taking into
> >> account usage by sector (see
> >>
> https://www.indy100.com/news/the-world-s-most-energy-efficient-countries-7334291
> >> ). It also doesn’t account for changes in technology in the energy
> >> sector, in specific changes in technology in the transportation sector
> >> since 1965 (see
> >> https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/09/20190930-sivak.html) or
> >> changes in price per gallon of various fossil fuels since 1965 (see
> >> Cost of gas the year you were born | The State
> >> <https://www.thestate.com/news/databases/article68603317.html>).
> >>
> >> Now, as for your other points, please show me hard data (in accessible
> >> format for the blind) over the last 30 years showing actual facts,
> >> verified data that isn’t cherry picked, padded or otherwise pulled out
> >> of thin air) on those points. Only then can we have a reasonable
> >> discussion. So far, you haven’t really shown much on those other
> >> points.
> >>
> >> SO, please, show your data and show your source that supports it.
> >> Talking points (regardless of political leaning) are just not
> >> acceptable.
> >>
> >> -Eric
> >> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Library Dept.
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jul 28, 2021, at 1:13 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss
> >>> <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss said on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 22:53:09 -0700
> >>>
> >>>> So, guys, nice little debate we all got snagged into here because of
> >>>> some state regulations that would prevent nearly 60 million people
> >>>> from owning technologies that would make their lives more
> >>>> convenient. Regulations put in place by politicians who know
> >>>> nothing of real science and are trying to kiss up to china. Now,
> >>>> where does that leave us?
> >>>
> >>> It leaves us with 60 million people who can't game quite as hard. Boo
> >>> hoo hoo.
> >>>
> >>> What's this fascination with China that you all have? China uses the
> >>> energy equivalent of 27,018 million barrels of oil for 1394 million
> >>> people, equalling 19.4 barrels per person. The US uses the
> >>> equivalent of 18,684 million barrels and has 328 million people,
> >>> equaling 56.9 barrels per person.
> >>>
> >>> So here's the question: If some country using almost triple the
> >>> energy per person than your country says *you* are the problem and
> >>> should cut, and they won't do squat until you cut, what would you
> >>> say to them?
> >>>
> >>> You ask where it leaves us. Hey, if you're 60 years old, it leaves
> >>> you having lived a pretty fun life. If you're 20 years old, it
> >>> leaves you with a very hard (and probably considerably
> >>> foreshortened) second half of your life. If you were just born
> >>> today, by the time you graduate college, the world will be rife with
> >>> climate refugees and water wars, and by the time you're 50, if you
> >>> last that long, the population decline will be brutal and pretty
> >>> universal except for the very rich. All because everybody in 2021
> >>> said the other guy should cut his emissions first.
> >>>
> >>> One more thing: Some friends of mine ran the numbers and according to
> >>> them the California computer energy standards aren't as strict as
> >>> those of the EU.
> >>>
> >>> I feel not a bit of sorrow for the 60 million potential gamers who
> >>> play at a slight disadvantage, if they play at all. I feel sorry for
> >>> their grandchildren.
> >>>
> >>> SteveT
> >>>
> >>> Steve Litt
> >>> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the
> >>> Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------
> >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
> >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> >>
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: techlists at phpcoderusa.com
> To: Main PLUG discussion list <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 09:19:31 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
>
> I think we are missing the point.
>
> This is America!!  We have lost our way.
>
> Government was instituted to protect us at the Federal level and protect
> us, provide water, sewer, roads, and schools and no more at the local
> level.  At the state level the government is supposed to protect us from
> runaway federal government.
>
> As for cars that use too much fuel and computers that use too may watts,
> let the market place decide not the government.
>
> We have a problem in California where they do not clean the forest floor
> of dead fuel and then they wonder why there are so many wild fires.
>
> California is also guilty of not maintaining it's power grid so now they
> have rolling blackouts.
>
> As a side note California also has the most homeless of any place on
> earth.  I read the richest place on earth, silicon valley, has designer
> trash cans and human excrement on the sidewalks and streets.
>
> We have lost our way.  We need Government to get out of the way and let
> the FREE market decide what Americans want to consume and let private
> business provide those goods and services.
>
> As a side note, did you know that America is producing less pollution
> that it has in the past?
>
> By the way CO2 is natural.  Plants were CREATED to take CO2 and turn it
> into oxygen.
>
>  From the Internet :
>
> "Plants are autotrophs, which means they produce their own food. They
> use the process of photosynthesis to transform water, sunlight, and
> carbon dioxide into oxygen, and simple sugars that the plant uses as
> fuel.".
>
> I think my neighborhood is doing it's part.  We have an HOA that
> requires each home have a mix of plants per the CC&Rs.  All of this is
> artificial.  We pipe water in to the houses and some of the water finds
> it's way into our drip irrigation.
>
> On the other hand this leads some to hire gardeners.  These gardeners
> drive big gas burning trucks and pull trainers full of refuge and power
> tools - most of which use gas.  If I believed in global warming, which I
> do not, I would be concerned.
>
> I could start a blog on global warming.
>
> Follow the money.  Look at Al Gore who is making money off of global
> warning and stands to make a ton.
>
> If Al Gore was really concerned wouldn't he be concerned about his
> electric and gas foot print.  No he is an elitist that does not care.
> He has a huge home with huge upkeep.  If you want to lead you much lead
> by example.  Al Gore has proven to be a man who wants to make money off
> of our sufferings.
>
> We have been duped.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2021-08-02 05:41, Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> > All this bickering is missing the overall point:
> >
> > The era of mainstream desktop PCs draining huge amounts of electricity
> > is over. The expectation is that we now use power efficient PCs,
> > whether
> > we like it or not.
> >
> > If only the graphics card vendors would make usable high end graphics
> > cards that don't require 550W all by itself, and 850W power supplies
> > for
> > the whole system.
> >
> >
> https://www.gamepressure.com/newsroom/geforce-rtx-3090-will-require-850w-power-supply-and-12-pin-plug/zb22f1
> >
> > Power efficient electronics have been the norm for awhile, and power
> > efficiency is a huge deal in laptop PCs and servers (and has been for a
> > VERY long time). Its only just now caught up to the desktop PC market.
> >
> > -Matt
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Matthew Crews <mailinglists at mattcrews.com>
> To: techlists at phpcoderusa.com, Main PLUG discussion list <
> plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 09:41:57 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> On 8/2/21 9:19 AM, techlists at phpcoderusa.com wrote:
> >
> > I think we are missing the point.
> >
> > This is America!!  We have lost our way.
>
> Except... this is a global issue, and not just an American issue.
>
> Looking at it through the lens of America first, and blinding yourself
> to the global ramifications, is super short sighted.
>
> As a member of a Linux mailing list, I would hope that we are
> remembering to look up once in awhile and remember our global neighbors.
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Matthew Gibson <guanjun.de.geliqian at gmail.com>
> To: Main PLUG discussion list <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:02:13 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> So let's see our global neighbors take up more of the slack in cutting
> their carbon emmissions, while America continues to invest in technology
> that will benefit the globe and do so at market rates.  Instead of by royal
> dictate that lines the pockets of corrupt government members.
>
> There's a reason people are pouring over the southern border and waiting
> in droves to properly immigrate here. Because of the freedom and
> opportunity that can be found here. The freedom and opportunity some
> members of our citizenry are so quick to sacrifice to a farce of a
> government promise of safety or security.
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021, 9:42 AM Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> On 8/2/21 9:19 AM, techlists at phpcoderusa.com wrote:
>> >
>> > I think we are missing the point.
>> >
>> > This is America!!  We have lost our way.
>>
>> Except... this is a global issue, and not just an American issue.
>>
>> Looking at it through the lens of America first, and blinding yourself
>> to the global ramifications, is super short sighted.
>>
>> As a member of a Linux mailing list, I would hope that we are
>> remembering to look up once in awhile and remember our global neighbors.
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Litt <slitt at troubleshooters.com>
> To: plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 14:46:03 -0400
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 02 Aug 2021 09:19:31 -0700
>
>
> >I could start a blog on global warming.
> >
> >Follow the money.
>
> Straight to the oil companies.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Litt <slitt at troubleshooters.com>
> To: plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 14:49:26 -0400
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:02:13 -0700
>
>
> >There's a reason people are pouring over the southern border and
> >waiting in droves to properly immigrate here. Because of the freedom
> >and opportunity that can be found here.
>
> And if you have your way, in 50 years Americans will be pouring over
> the Canadian border just to feel a cool breeze every few weeks.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Matthew Gibson <guanjun.de.geliqian at gmail.com>
> To: Main PLUG discussion list <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 11:56:48 -0700
> Subject: Re:
> https://www.zerohedge.com/political/59-million-americans-prohibited-buying-high-end-dell-gaming-pcs
> And if you have your way we will be looking a lot like Venezuela or Cuba.
>
> Now, aside from attempting to force your will upon me and society,  what
> can you personally do to lower your carbon footprint?
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021, 11:49 AM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> Matthew Gibson via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:02:13 -0700
>>
>>
>> >There's a reason people are pouring over the southern border and
>> >waiting in droves to properly immigrate here. Because of the freedom
>> >and opportunity that can be found here.
>>
>> And if you have your way, in 50 years Americans will be pouring over
>> the Canadian border just to feel a cool breeze every few weeks.
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt
>> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
>> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> PLUG-discuss mailing list  -  PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>

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