new thread: QoS, latency, bandwidth and the FCC/net neutrality debate

Sun Nov 26 00:01:03 MST 2017

Here is another great video worth considering. It is very long but
informative https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z_nBhfpmk4

On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 10:30 PM, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. <
herminio.hernandezjr at gmail.com> wrote:

> Here is a good presentation by Bryan Lunduke on NN
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csK3KspB-6A
>
> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 10:24 PM, Herminio Hernandez Jr. <
> herminio.hernandezjr at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My point was those abuses were addressed without the need of NN in the
>> past. NN IMO was a too heavy handed and misguided approach to a situation
>> which the previous system took care of.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Nov 25, 2017, at 9:52 PM, Brian Cluff <brian at snaptek.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think you forget that the neutrality was put into place specifically to
>> deal with the network providers messing with netflix among other service's
>> data in favor of their own services.  That IS how we dealt with it.
>>
>> You keep talking about being able to get optimized services, but those
>> are legal and common now.  Getting rid of net neutrality won't enable
>> those.  Throttling your competitors services to the point of degrading
>> their service isn't an optimized service.
>>
>> Brian Cluff
>>
>>
>> On 11/25/2017 07:24 PM, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote:
>>
>> I do understand those concerns, but those types of abuses have existed in
>> the past and were dealt with before there was Net Neutrality. I do really
>> think that the bigger threat from the big content providers and not the
>> ISPs.
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 7:12 PM, <techlists at phpcoderusa.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I hear you.  If everyone would play fair I would think slicing up data
>>> usage is fair.  I watch a lot of YouTube, however I do not need 4k.  My
>>> main concern is for businesses who use the Internet to market and do
>>> business.  As you probably know there is a move from brick and mortar to
>>> online stores and more so to selling on Amazon.
>>>
>>> If there is no net neutrality and GoDaddy invests in timewarner, then
>>> timewarner could keep people from seeing your website that is hosted on
>>> HostGator. Then Godaddy could coerce you into moving to GoDaddy or pay a
>>> fee to GoDaddy or timewarner.
>>>
>>> I see some serious antitrust coming. We need to get ICAAN back and we
>>> need to keep the Internet the Wild West to some degree. I do see Google is
>>> headed for some antitrust law suites, and maybe Government oversight.
>>> Government oversight is scary given how corrupt our Government is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2017-11-24 12:31, Herminio Hernandez, Jr. wrote:
>>>
>>> I will start with some thoughts on why I find the NN debate troubling.
>>> First there is a technical misunderstanding. NN is built on the idea that
>>> ISPs should treat all traffic equally. This concept is simply unrealistic.
>>> Bandwidth is a limited resource there is only so much data that a Ethernet
>>> port can transmit and receive. Also things like MTU size, latency, jitter
>>> all impact the reliable transmission of data which bring me to my other
>>> point. Not all traffic is the same. There are night and day differences
>>> between TCP and UDP traffic. For example UDP (which is what most voice and
>>> video is) is faster than TCP. The drawback to this is that UDP does not
>>> have the recovery features that TCP has in case of packet loss (ie sequence
>>> number and acknowledgment packets). There UDP applications are more prone
>>> to suffer when latency is high or links get saturated. To overcome this
>>> network engineer implement prioritization and traffic shaping to ensure
>>> these services are not impacted.
>>>
>>> As more content is consumed such as 4K video on the internet, the need
>>> for traffic shaping will only increase. Netflix already has the ability to
>>> push 100Gbps from their servers. That is a ton of data that needs to be
>>> prioritized by ISPs. This is not free there are serious costs involved in
>>> man hours and infrastructure. Someone needs to bear that cost. This is why
>>> I am not opposed to fast lanes. If Netflix is going to have ISPs ensure all
>>> of the massive amounts to data are push is delivered efficiently, then the
>>> ISPs should be free to charge a premium for this service. Netflix does not
>>> want to bear this cost, hense their support for Net Neutrality. They want
>>> the ISPs to bear the cost, but then result of that is we bear the cost via
>>> data caps.
>>>
>>> When you strip away all the slogans it all comes down to money and
>>> control. Data will be traffic shaped it is just who decides how unelected
>>> government bureaucrats pushing some public policy or market forces.
>>>
>>> Something else to consider a lot not all but a lot of the very same
>>> people who cry that the end of Net Neutrality will be end of free speech
>>> (no more free and open internet) have no issue saying Twiiter, Facebook,
>>> and Google (since they are 'private companies') have the right demonetize,
>>> obscure, or even ban individuals who express ideas that other deem
>>> "offensive". How is that promoting a "Free and Open Internet"?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 24, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Eric Oyen <eric.oyen at icloud.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> well, as someone else suggested, a new thread.
>>>>
>>>> so, shall we start the discussion?
>>>>
>>>> ok, as mentioned, bandwidth is a limited resource. the question is How
>>>> limited?
>>>>
>>>> Then there is the question: can an ISP curtail certain types of traffic
>>>> (null route it, delay it, other bandwidth shaping routines)? How far can
>>>> they go?
>>>>
>>>> What really is net neutrality?
>>>>
>>>> lastly, what part does the FCC play, or should they?
>>>>
>>>> so, any thoughts on the above questions?
>>>>
>>>> -eric
>>>> from the central offices of the Technomage Guild, you got questions, we
>>>> got answers Dept.
>>>>
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>>
>>
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