OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.

Tue Aug 31 07:19:16 MST 2010

Yes, some taxes are necessary.  SOME!  Look at the road infrastructure in Metro Phoenix.  Without those roads I-10, 101, 202, 303, I-17, 51, 43, businesses would only be able to hire people living within 10 miles.

We still need government to do certain things like fire, police, water, sewer, trash pickup, roads/streets/freeways, parks, military, and possibly a few more things.  

I am for a reduction of government by as much as 95%.  And I am for doing away with payroll taxes.  But that is another story for another day. 

------------------------

Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 8/31/10, Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle at cox.net> wrote:

From: Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle at cox.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.
To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 6:52 AM

At 06:38 AM 8/31/2010, you wrote:

This has been a good discussion
in that it has helped me understand why I think Wal-Mart is a
cancer.

I have had this deep seated feeling that I could not fully articulate,
that I think I understand better now why I felt that way. 

I do not have the time nor the energy to fully articulate the entire
reasoning, in depth.

Let's start at the most fundamental point.  As a Christian I believe
we are part of the community.  I believe we are blessed to
bless.  In other words we should share our time, talents, and
treasures with our community.  I also believe the word of God says
the worker's wages cry our for him.  -  James 5:4 - "Look!
The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying
out against you.".

There is two issues here.  

1) The government is in the process of creating a welfare state which
allows those who are so inclined to redirect that subsistence into their
own pockets.

2) Wal-Mart has become an expert in creating an environment where they
funnel our tax dollars, indirectly thought government subsistence, into
their pockets. 

My point is just because you can does not make it right.  I do not
see Wal-Mart moving to limit government subsistence.  Nor do I see
them working to create an environment where less government subsistence
is necessary. What I do see is a very powerful company taking advantage
of the system instead of working towards fixing it.  I believe in
the book of James it says that a person shall be know by his works or the
fruit he bears.

Wal-Mart impacts the community in a bad way.  They lower wages and
kill main street.  I call that sin.  Each one of us has a
fiduciary responsibility to do good not evil.

Just one small example.  Wal-Mart contracts with China to make some
of it's products. It has been documented that these Chinese companies are
sweatshops.  Now just because one can does not mean one
should.  This comment only addresses the labor issues, it does not
address the product safety issues.  As of late we have found that
China has a real product safety problem.

Lets look at this from my business prospective.  I am a LAMP
developer and I have SEO skills.  I could expand my website to bring
in lots of projects and I could hire some Indian programmers and
designers for $5/hr and I could charge American companies over
$100/hr.  I could probably build a business that could bring in 200k
or 300k a year doing so. Under this model I would be able to keep the
vast majority of of what I would charge.  I would be well off and
living high off the hog.

I could do this and it is completely legal. If I took on this business
model, I would be thinking only of myself.  Sure I could tithe to my
church and even give to other charities so I could point to all the good
I had done.  In the end I would only be thinking of Keith.  I
would have missed an opportunity to impact my community in a good and
necessary way. 

Lets look at a different model.  I expand my website and start
bringing in lots of projects.  I hire LAMP programmers from the
local community, and I'm not cheap about it. I make less, however I have
just created wealth within my local community.  These are American
citizens who buy products and services within the local market. 
They pay taxes.  This model helps us all.  Doing business this
way is doing business the right way.

Each of us has a responsibility to our community.  If we have, we
must give back in some significant way.  We must get to a point were
we understand what it means to give a hand up not a hand out.  There
are circumstances where long term subsistence is needed, however there is
no place for a dependent class.  We must create an economy that
allows the worker to make a living wage and have NO need for government
subsistence.          

Just because Wal-Mart can does not mean they should.  

Notice I have not suggested any government intervention.

Sorry -- you said "They pay taxes."

 We need no
artificial wage control nor do we need vast welfare programs.  What
we need is 1) moral business leaders 2) the Church to take on it rightful
roll in helping those who cannot help themselves and creating a
"hand up" environment.

Recently a Christian pastor told me that the government is only doing
what the Church has failed to do. 

The only problem with the government filling that void is the government
had perverted and is now using dependency for its own political
gain.  There are strings attached when government gets involved.

Lets come together as a community and solve this problem.

------------------------

Keith Smith

--- On Mon, 8/30/10, joe at actionline.com
<joe at actionline.com> wrote:

From: joe at actionline.com <joe at actionline.com>

Subject: Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable
problem.

To: "Main PLUG discussion list"
<plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>

Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 3:10 PM

> I would say Wal-mart is a great example of true greed.

Keith, I'm really sorry that you seem to have such a hateful
attitude

toward Walmart. I don't want to pick a fight with you my good
friend,

but I do feel it's important to clarify a couple things.

You asserted:

> They require tax cuts to build in your area

> and they pay the lowest of low wages.

Neither Walmart nor any other business can "require" or
coerce any

government, city, state, or federal to provide "tax
cuts."

It is common practice and not in the least bit unethical for any

business or any other entity that brings jobs and economic activity
to an

area to seek incentives to move in to that area. No government
is

"required" to capitulate to providing such
incentives.

There is nothing wrong with any business offering whatever wage rates
that

they may choose to offer.  Walmart can not offer lower wages
than the

minimum wage and nobody is required to accept or stay in any job
that

Walmart or any other employer may offer.

> They tell their employees to get government subsistence as
part

> of their model.

I seriously question that Walmart "tells" their employees
any such thing;

however, the point is that Walmart (and every employer) has every
right to

decide whatever wage rates they want to offer, and nobody is
"required" to

accept any job that employer may offer.

> Basically we subsidize their business model by supporting
their

> employees with section-8 housing, food stamps, and state
funded

> health care.

That is not Walmart's fault.  It is unrealistic to blame Walmart
for what

the anti-American socialists among our elected representatives
have

contrived. Walmart did not do that, did not advocate that, and is
not

responsible for that.

> I have no problem with the needy being helped however when
it

> becomes part of a business plan, I am against it.

Do you really disagree with the notion that you (if you were an
employer)

or any other employer (including Walmart) should have the right to
decide

whatever wage rates that they want to offer? Nobody is holding a gun
to a

Walmart employment applicant's head coercing them to accept any job
that

Walmart may wish to offer. It is still a free country (so
far).

> People need to make a living wage.

Do you really believe that employers should be coerced by our
government

to set wage rates that employers should be required to offer other
than

minimum wage?  Even setting a minimum wage is
debatable.

> And as they move up they should make a decent wage. In 2002 I
worked

> with a guy who had been a department manager at Wal-Mart and he
left

> Wal-Mart because he was only making $8/hr.

So what? Good for him that he was free to leave.

> Walmart is a cancer in my opinion. 

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but what benefit is it
and

what does it accomplish to hate and berate the largest employer in
the

world because they have a successful business that provides more

employment for more people than any other private sector entity in
the

world?

You recommended:

>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiSmlmXp-aU&

Robert Greenwald is just another anti-everything Michael Moore type
-- a

radical, liberal, elitist, left-wing extremist, socialist. It is
very

surprising to me that you of all people would be swayed by any of
his

one-sided drivel and distortions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Greenwald

Greenwald's approach has been to adapt guerrilla filmmaking to
political

documentaries ... in affiliation with politically sympathetic groups
such

as Moveon.org.

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