OT: Survelliance in America

[Joshua Zeidner]

On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 6:13 PM, keith smith <klsmith2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Just remember everything must pass the test of the constitution.
>
> Look at the DC gun law.  Look at the secret trials of the combatants.  It
> all comes to pass.

  sure, even one day this country called America will come to pass.
perhaps sooner than later.

  -jmz

>
>
>
>
> ------------------------
> Keith Smith
> (520) 207-9877
> PHP Programmer
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 6/28/08, Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: OT: Survelliance in America
> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> Date: Saturday, June 28, 2008, 5:05 PM
>
> The greatest travesty in my opinion is that we have already
>  worked
> through the problems that Craig cites, that is why FISA was created in
> the first place!  Allowing our intelligence agencies free and
> unrestricted access to such information gives far too much privilege
> to a small group.
>
>  The fact that this bill makes it legal to break the law (a very
> important law) shows how utterly degraded our justice system has
> become.  Given this legislation has become law, we can no longer
> assume that any law on the books that is designed to protect us is
> even valid, because apparently any law may be broken and its violators
> may be 'retroactively immunized'.  And the fact that politicians who
> reportedly represent us are supporting it, show how totally useless
> our legislative system is.  What the next progression is for America
> is anyones guess.
>
>  All in the name of 'safety'.  Safety from what precisely?
>
>  -jmz
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Craig White
>  <craigwhite at azapple.com>
> wrote:
>> On Sat, 2008-06-28 at 15:58 -0700, Jason Spatafore wrote:
>>> We shouldn't be as worried about being monitored as we should be
> worried
>>> about admission of the monitored activities in a court of law.
>>>
>>> I think it should be fine to be monitored on the Internet, just like
> you
>>> shouldn't have a "reasonable expectation of privacy"
> when walking down
>>> the street. The Internet is essentially a publicly monitored, yet
>>> private roadway. Anything going over the wires can and should be
>>> permitted to be monitored. When you pay a toll for a toll road, do you
>>> expect no cameras to be there because you paid to be on that road? The
>>> Internet is the same.
>>>
>>> However, I do not believe that such monitoring should be allowed in a
>>> court of law as "evidence" or that such monitoring
>  should be
> permitted
>>> as "public information".
>>>
>>> What I mean here is that I think it should be illegal for a person to
>>> post a picture passed via email (or the email itself) onto a newsgroup
>>> or forum and mark it as "public information". Such an act
> should be
>>> considered illegal by some type of law, whether it's slander or
> some
>>> other already established law.
>>>
>>> I also don't believe that such monitoring should be permitted to
> obtain
>>> a warrant to monitor nor should it be admissible as evidence. It
>>> shouldn't be illegal to *listen*, but it should be illegal to
> "repeat"
>>> or take action based off the information (much like insider trading
>>> laws). If I spy on my neighbor by packet sniffing his router, that
>>> should not be illegal. However, whatever I *do* with the information I
>>>
>  obtained should be punishable by law. The same standards should be
> held
>>> to the government.
>>>
>>> Yes, you should be able to listen. No, you cannot do anything with
> what
>>> you've heard.
>>>
>>> Of course, you can take it one step further and ask: "Should the
>>> government be permitted to hack into your computer and watch you on
> the
>>> webcam connected to the PC?"
>>>
>>> That's where I would say "No". The difference is because
> they are
>>> opening the door, not you. When you go online (physically take action
>>> to surf the net or send email), you are opening the door and stepping
>>> out into the street. When your computer is just connected to the
>>> Internet, then you are not out in the street...your door is closed and
>>> your expectation of privacy should be protected. (Locking your door is
>>> not an
>  argument...you shouldn't have to lock your door to expect
>>> privacy....you should only have to close it.)
>> ----
>> There are multiple issues here. The one that seemed absolutely clear cut
>> was the issue of immunity for the telecoms because that prevents any
>> disclosure about what was done which seems to have been conducted
>> without legal authority. There are numerous trials in process that would
>> force the disclosure of what has been done on whose authority and this
>> is too important to allow it to be secreted away forever.
>>
>> To actually discuss the current FISA legislation without weighing in on
>> the topic of retroactive immunity for the telecoms is a signal that you
>> don't have a clue what the topic of discussion actually is.
>>
>> The other issue is that this particular administration has proven that
>> government is not to be trusted because they
>  taken overly broad claims
>> of secrecy needs to prevent disclosure - to the point where they are
>> actually trying to conduct trials against accused persons without having
>> to disclose their evidence because of secrecy claims.
>>
>> The erosion of public trust and the guarantees contained in the Bill of
>> Rights is sickening and should send a chill through all Americans. What
>> we have done in response to an isolated terrorist action on our soil is
>> nothing short of completely stupid.
>>
>> Government uses fear against the people and we succeed when we have
>> transparency, not secrecy.
>>
>> I cringe at the thought that the bulk of the citizens in the US don't
>> get this.
>>
>> Craig
>>
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>
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>
>  - http://www.joshuazeidner.com/
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