LTSP vs. Win Terminal Server vs. Citrix

[George Gambill]

I think Craig nailed it very well.  But, to slice it another direction, here
are my rambling thoughts.

OpenOffice Calc (spread sheet) reads and writes Excel spread sheets 100
percent. (per Others I know and respect highly)  (No doubt the Excel Version
Next will change this for a time till OpenOffice catches up)

OpenOffice Writer (word processor) reads and writes MS Word (latest and
greatest) documents with the exception of a very few (seldom used by anyone)
macros. (per Others and somewhat my experience)  (No doubt the MS Version
Next will change this for a time till OpenOffice catches up)

OpenOffice Impress (presentation) reads and writes all MS Power Point files.
(per Others)  (No doubt the MS Version Next will change this for a time till
OpenOffice catches up)

RedHat 8.0 Evolution (email) works well with MS Exchange. (per my
experience)

There is a commercial (not free but much less $$$ than MS) equivalent
(Linux) to MS Exchange.  (per others)

CrossXover (Per my experience) or WINE (per others) runs the MS Office Suite
(4 package version, Word, Excel, Power Point, Outlook) under the Linux
operating system very well.  If they want only these MS applications,
CrossXover will serve well.  MS Access is not quite there yet. 

rDeskTop presents a Linux workstation to MS Terminal Server as if it (the
Linux workstation) were a MS Terminal Server Client.  (per my experience)
MS Terminal Server will run all MS applications (I think, haven't tried them
all)  If they want unrestricted access to all the MS applications, rDeskTop
running through MS Terminal Server should serve them well tempered with what
Craig mentioned (Citrix v. MS Terminal Server).

Haven't tried or read anything about, rDeskTop with Citrix.  My loss.  Maybe
our loss.

LTSP (Linux Terminal Server Project) is to the Linux OS (Terminal server)
what MS Terminal Client is to MS Terminal Server.  Thinclient.  LTSP can run
OpenOffice just as MS Terminal Server Client can run Ms Office (Word, Excel,
PowerPoint ...) via MS Terminal Server.  Haven't tried CrossXover running
under LTSP.

My current project is to see if rDeskTop will work with MS Terminal Server
under LSTP.  If so, there is just one more dent in the MS armor.

End of rambling.

-----Original Message-----
On Fri, 2003-01-31 at 02:07, Alan Dayley wrote:
> I need someone with some real world experience to shed some light on this.
It's funny how hard it is to find real data on how proprietary systems work
and what they really cost.  No body wants to publish anything unless you
wave $$ at them.  Citrix has their price sheet right there on the web but
the combinations of licensing programs and product capabilities are
confusing.  You would have to go get the sales pitch before you could ever
understand what it really all means.  I gues that is the point: Obfuscate
the data so the prospect has to subject themselves to the hard sell.
> 
> Oops, that turned into a rant.  Sorry.  I'll now fire some bullets to stay
on topic.
> 
> 1 - Boundaries: I know the Freedom and Open arguments.  LTSP wins on this
alone, as far as I am concerned.  I don't want to start a discussion on
that.  I know many PLUG'ers work or have worked with these proprietary
systems.  I want to tap their practical experience here.  License costs are
also not up for debate since there is no argument.  Zero license cost is
less than non-zero.
> 2 - Citrix runs on Windows Terminal Server to support thin clients.  What
additional features does Citrix bring for the additional cost over a pure
Terminal Server solution?
> 3 - What relative horsepower is needed at the server to achieve similar
performance at the client?  I assume Citrix takes more than Terminal Server
which is more than LTSP.
> 4 - I have some idea from reading and hearing what the maintainance effort
of LTSP is.  How does the other two compare?
> 5 - We are talking about a system of about 15 - 20 thin clients, all PCs.
Is Citrix overkill for that?
> 
> The goal here is for me to gain a knowledge base to talk from to my
higher-ups as they are talking more and more about thin clients.  Just
saying "Linux is great" does not cut the mustard.  I still am working to
overcome the "everyone else uses [insert proprietary office software and
format here] so we have to" argument.  That stand leads to "Linux can't run
[proprietary software and formats] so we need a MS based solution" that
cannot be defeated by shouts of "Freedom!"  (Sad but true.)
> 
> Thanks for reading.  More thanks if your can respond with some meat.  I'll
keep googling for data too.
> 
> Alan
> 
> PS A funny aside: I discussed OpenOffice today and was told "I don't think
it is compatible enough yet."  I went to the Citrix web site and downloaded
their license prices that they publish as an MS Excel spreadsheet file.  I
loaded it in OpenOffice Calc and printed it perfectly, unretouched.  I have
created a cover sheet for the document pointing this success out to the
skeptic.
------
Here's my one and half cents worth...

Windows Terminal Server is a somewhat incomplete package of a thin
client system and Citrix completes the setup. Citrix smooths out the
wrinkles and makes the system redirects (printers, serial devices, drive
assignments) work properly. In addition, Citrix provides a client for
virtually all desktop OS's whereas Microsoft Terminal Server has a
client only for computer already running Windows. Lastly, Citrix
provides a very sophisticated data compression enabling the thin client
to have acceptable performance on low bandwidth connections (dial up).
Citrix isn't overkill and it is scaled to be most effective (costwise)
for 20 users.

I think a comparison of Linux to Windows is about the philosophical
discussion. I would have a hard time convincing myself that running Wine
or Cross whatever it is so that I could use Windows applications is
worthwhile. The philosophical point is that with Windows, one is willing
to accept the notion of paying an amount of money to buy software which
we know going in, will have only a short life and the acceptance that it
will require continual 'repurchase'. I believed in the system until I
saw the phenomenal offerings of open source/free software and have faith
that it only gets better.

I would suppose the concept of whether Linux cuts the mustard depends
upon the hotdog and bun. If you think that you need the latest /
greatest everything and feature glut then Windows would have to be the
better solution. I would submit that I know less than 5 computer users
that could ever make use of features within Word/Excel/PowerPoint that
aren't currently supported in OpenOffice. BTW...OpenOffice has macro's
too. Linux is certainly ready and fully capable of being the only OS in
an office environment...there are businesses, government offices etc.
that are already proving that. Lastly, simply paying for software
doesn't guarantee that it is not without problems or bugs. It probably
only guarantees that the company will be around to 'rent' you an updated
version of their buggy program. What I am seeing now as prevalent in the
software industry, is a notion that 'they have fixed that problem' but
only in the new version and it is $ xxxx.xx to upgrade.

Craig