[PLUG-Devel] Hi all
Joshua Zeidner
jjzeidner at gmail.com
Mon Sep 10 21:11:21 MST 2007
On 9/10/07, Tim Heuer <timheuer at microsoft.com> wrote:
> Hey jmz, no you didn't call me a sell-out, but you are calling me out, so I'll take the bait ;-)
For one Tim, I have no desire to descend into cheap shots and
personal attacks here. I'm not calling you out.
>
> "Kind of salesman" -- you mean the same kind of salesman you are about your desire for leveraging OSS? Then sure, yes I'm a 'salesman' in my passion for technology.
There is a key qualitative difference here. I am advocating a
platform that is free and open, you are advocating, in this case, open
technologies that implicate a closed and proprietary platform.
>
> "MSFT marketroid" -- I like this one, I think I'll use it, but I come from 12 years of software development (may not be a lot by some standards) where I wrote code. I still write code but thankfully have no deadlines and don't have to track my time in 15 minute increments. My passion at the core is code. Hardly a marketroid. As to if being on this list is a part of my job description? I guess so. My job is to be a liaison for software developers to Microsoft, to demonstrate the technology pieces I'm passionate about, and to learn as well.
Im glad you like it. Im not really interested in disputing your
street cred, that not at all what I'm after here.
>
> "MSFT spamming this list is also not my idea of ethical behavior" -- as was pointed out, I was *asked to join* -- I can send you the entire thread with Alan if you'd like. I did not enter until asked to do so. I'm on the local Ruby list, I'm on the local Rails list, I'm on the local Java list -- I've not once spammed anyone of them (including any MSFT list).
>
> "war on Linux/oss" -- those times are in the past
No so recent past. Has MSFT put it all behind them? Why should we
buy that? Because they just employed a bunch of 'really cool people'?
> -- again, I believe we've chosen a course and have the right people in place to help that course continue. Our partnership with Novell, our open source labs, etc. I have a few open source projects myself and can attest to that the greater community of Microsoft developers don't "get" OSS -- they think it is just free software. I see it as a collaborative software environment. I have one project that was so popular in sales I decided to open source it at the request of the customers. There were tweaks they wanted. So I did. 3 years later, not one contribution back to the project, but over 78K downloads. Disappointing to say the least, but it demonstrated that the Microsoft greater community (read: developers) have a long way to go to understanding OSS. It's a growing pain process for a community that has historically just been commercial.
>
> "wolf in sheep clothing" -- I've not been called that yet, but I was called an unwitting agent at OSCON06. That led into about a 4 hour conversation where it suddenly dawned on the group we were talking with that despite their distaste of Microsoft at OSCON we were the only "vendor" that came to talk to the community (the barcamp style gatherings throughout the conference) -- several noted that Google, MySql, Zend, etc. -- most that avidly support OSS -- were not willing to talk to them. We are/were because we want to learn how to make it work better. Sure, I'm one of 65K employees. But I wouldn't work for a company I don't believe in and I wouldn't participate in things I'm not passionate about.
>
> I'm a believer in choice. And as such you have your opinion and choice to believe what you wish of me. I absolutely love technology. It is unfortunately my hobby as well as my job and takes a lot of time away from my personal life (what little of it is left with 2 small kids) and my family time. I absolutely love learning more and more. Quite frankly this thread has already educated me as well -- and that's the point for me. I keep an open mind always. Always.
>
> I'm sorry that this thread has degraded to calling people out and making assumptions. I'll respectfully leave when asked.
I don't think anyone is asking you to leave or stop posting. I'm
certainly not in the position to suggest anyone leaves. Im just
suggesting you properly identify yourself... sound familiar? :)
I honestly don't have the time to run the gamut of various factoids
and case examples of why, this time, MSFT is good for all. I just
don't buy it. MSFT is in the business of doing one thing: selling and
placing Windows. AMOF, they state this quite plainly when addressing
investors. Linux cuts into their share. They want it gone. They
want the option to be erased. They want market control. Thats how
profit is maintained. Im sure there are many here who dont recognize
or understand that. I don't like it that MSFT uses these tactics to
make it difficult for people to realize these basic facts about their
business.
I am, as many can attest to, very involved with software development
and communications systems. I don't like the fact that MSFT has set
us back decades so that a few people can make a great deal of money.
MSFT is about as cool as Dick Cheney.
-jmz
>
> tim heuer | (602) 405-4567 | im: tim at timheuer.com | blog: http://timheuer.com/blog/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: plug-devel-bounces at lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us [mailto:plug-devel-bounces at lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Joshua Zeidner
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 6:47 PM
> To: List for Linux development and software engineering discussions.
> Subject: Re: [PLUG-Devel] Hi all
>
> Hi Josh + Tim,
>
> Again, I'm not calling Tim a sell-out.
>
> Just want to make it clear to everyone that he is a kind of
> salesman. I do think its important for everyone to understand whats
> driving this particular discussion. Again, I've run into this one
> before on AZIPA, with a guy who was employed by Verizon to argue
> against municipal networks. The result of being critical was an
> extremely long and protracted discussion about the economics of WANs
> and municipal financing, etc. Most people on the list didn't
> particularily appreciate it, but if you put two people in a pit and
> one is being financed and the other is doing it purely on a personal
> interest basis, guess who is going to win? Even if I do manage to out
> argue or outwit, in the end I lose a few hours/days of work.
> Microsoft et al. knows this. Getting into a tangle with a MSFT
> marketroid is not exactly my idea of a good time. MSFT spamming this
> list is also not my idea of ethical behavior.
>
> I know you have a background in MS technology and Im not going to
> knock you or anyone else for it. The fact is though, that MSFT has
> repeatedly violated consumer trust in the past(especially that of
> developers), and has openly declared war on Linux and OSS. I guess
> this points to greater more challenging problems of corporate
> responsibility, but I'll leave that one to Mike Moore. What is
> certainly problematic, however is MSFT trying to play wolf in sheep
> clothing... and I'll leave it at that.
>
> thanks Josh.
>
> -jmz
>
>
> On 9/10/07, Josh Coffman <joshcoffman at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I do know Tim, and can tell you he is definitely no sell-out.
> > I think his official title is (or was) Technical Evangelist. To a certain
> > extent, talking about MS products is his job. I also know he can and will be
> > frank about things. Basically, he's employed to learn about MS products and
> > mess around at conferences then go and tell companies and developers about
> > them. those who want to know.
> >
> > The job is not trolling on forums or user groups trying to convince people
> > of anything.
> >
> > I think the original purpose of this was to discuss Silverlight/Moonlight,
> > the purpose of them, and MS's role. If you're not interested because of MS
> > being involved, then fine. feel free to ignore this thread.
> >
> > Personally, I'm very interested. It would kind of bridge a couple worlds for
> > me, and making expanding my linux/oss world easier.
> >
> >
> > On 9/10/07, Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Just to clarify, I'm not calling Tim a sellout. I don't know him,
> > > can't tell where he is coming from. I would like to know if doing
> > > this sort of thing is part of his job description.
> > >
> > > -jmz
> > >
> > >
> > > On 9/10/07, Alan Dayley < alandd at consultpros.com> wrote:
> > > > Joshua Zeidner wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > on this list. It seems that one of their recent strategies is to
> > > > > employ 'cool' and 'passionate' people to gab about their technologies
> > > > > on lists like this. MSFT has not become 'cool', the company is a
> > > >
> > > > I have no doubt there are many MSFT people who are tasked to seek out
> > > > forums for getting the word out. In contrast, Tim did not join this
> > > > list until he was asked and approached the group privately first.
> > > >
> > > > Personally I'd classify Tim as 'cool' and 'passionate' about tech. He
> > > > certainly is not unwelcome to this or any other PLUG list.
> > > >
> > > > Alan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-devel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > .0000. communication.
> > > .0001. development.
> > > .0010. strategy.
> > > .0100. appeal.
> > >
> > > JOSHUA M. ZEIDNER
> > > IT Consultant
> > >
> > > ( 602 ) 490 8006
> > > jjzeidner at gmail.com
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > PLUG-devel mailing list -
> > PLUG-devel at lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> > >
> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-devel
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> .0000. communication.
> .0001. development.
> .0010. strategy.
> .0100. appeal.
>
> JOSHUA M. ZEIDNER
> IT Consultant
>
> ( 602 ) 490 8006
> jjzeidner at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> PLUG-devel mailing list - PLUG-devel at lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-devel
> _______________________________________________
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>
--
.0000. communication.
.0001. development.
.0010. strategy.
.0100. appeal.
JOSHUA M. ZEIDNER
IT Consultant
( 602 ) 490 8006
jjzeidner at gmail.com
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