Guinea Pigs [was] Re: EPP [snip]
Joseph Sinclair
plug-devel@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
Wed Mar 16 13:13:02 2005
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Trent Shipley wrote:
>On Monday 2005-03-14 22:21, Joseph Sinclair wrote:
>
>
>>Trent Shipley wrote:
>>
>>
>>><<SNIP>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Integrating with ERP would just impose constraints without
>>>>providing any benefit in this case. None of the common functionality in
>>>>ERP/ERM will support any normal function in the event planning space,
>>>>unless the company is in the business of providing events, in which case
>>>>a relatively simple link into any existing ERP system would be
>>>>appropriate and sufficient.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>In my experience, there is NO SUCH THING as a "simple" link into an
>>>existing ERPM. Peoplesoft, at least, doesn't do a good job of hiding its
>>>data layer. There is no neat API. Usually you have to hack directly into
>>>the database layer that is enormous and unspeakably complex.
>>>
>>>
>>You're right, to an extent, but we're not going to get any help in that
>>arena by hooking into a particular platform either. The idea I
>>expressed is that our side of the link should be pretty simple, not that
>>the link interface on the other side would be simple, it won't, no
>>matter what platform we choose, because the major ERP vendors are
>>proprietary systems that create very high artificial barriers to entry
>>by hiding and obscuring their internal API's.
>>Note, there are open-technology ERP systems, but they're not widely used
>>at this point. If they ever do become more widespread, then we can
>>certainly look at including a strong integration to such systems as a
>>module in the base distribution of our system.
>>
>>
>
>I understand JS as saying that among EPP's (Event Planning and Production's)
>design goals are:
>
>1) It will be (relatively) simple to link into EPP from other software.
>2a) EPPP (EPP Project) will facilitate #1 by producing a clear and open API(s)
>2b) EPPP will document EPP's API(s)
>
>
>
Since I am "JS", I think my clarification should be taken as such, but
I'll repeat.
1) I didn't say it would be simple to link to/from other software, only
that the EPP portion of said links would/should be simple. In most
cases, the other side of the link will be moderately to hideously
complex, depending on how amenable that software is to external links
(most proprietary software falls in the hideous range).
2) It's EPP, not EPPP (Event Planning Project, no need to repeat project
twice).
3) The EPP API's will be open for anyone with programming skill to see,
the code will be freely available. I don't anticipate huge API
documents (unless they're easy to generate, something like the JavaDoc
tool could help there).
>>><<SNIP>>
>>>
>>>
>> Anyone who wants an NDA on their conversations isn't someone we want
>>to interview, no confidentiality (although we do respect individual
>>privacy, and names/personal data will be excised on request).
>>
>>
>
>This is at odds with most sociology that I've done, even market research.
>Even in market research you promise participants confidentiality and try to
>provide anonymity. It should be impossible for an outsider to trace a datum
>back to an individual participant.
>
>In anthropology or journalism you at least guarantee plausible deniability and
>aim for real confidentiality. Some looser ethical standards allow
>researchers to use real names if the participant asks the researcher to do
>so. Publishing "vital statistics" or histories is touchy, because it takes
>so little data to effectively identify an individual.
>
>(Note to self: Check ethical standards of Society for Applied Anthropology and
>for market researchers' professional association.)
>
>My professional expectation is that we should gather data. We need to gather
>data ethically. Most important, we need to negotiate among ourselves and
>with participants the boundaries for gathering data.
>
>That said, most boiler plate NDAs are designed to be so restrictive that there
>would be no reason to procede with research if a prospective participant
>insisted on a non-negotiable non-disclosure agreement.
>
>
>
I agree with your conclusions, I think you misunderstood my original
paragraph.
My understanding of the two terms is slightly different from yours.
Allow me to explain more fully.
Confidentiality implies that any information gathered will be used
exclusively within the gathering organization, anonymity/privacy implies
that data gathered cannot be traced back to any individual. I fully
support anonymity and privacy. In fact, we probably shouldn't gather
personal details beyond the absolute minimum required to accomplish the
project goals. We cannot, however, agree that the resultant
requirements data would remain within the EPP, the documents that
contain the resultant should be available in the same packaging as the
source code. I expect that all project documents will be released by
the project under the GFDL, If there's disagreement on that, I'd like to
hear it. If you work with any of the major open source foundations,
you'll find they don't sign NDA's, nor do they require others to sign
them. The analysis and research associated with the development effort
is considered to be equivalent in nature to the software itself, and the
results should be available on similar terms.
>> The software will be GPL, anyone who wants it will have access to
>>the community builds and to the full source code.
>>
>>
>
>Yes, but it takes extra effort to provide information or rich feedback to
>EPPP. Anyone can use a build, but if Jane Doe's Weddings or MacDiznie take
>the time to tell us about how they do event planning and later how our
>software is working out for them, then EPPP should give them "consideration".
>That is just realistic.
>
>
We don't have any way to provide consideration, and I don't expect we
ever will. Again, look at other open-source projects, and you'll find
the same characteristic. Everyone working in open source is a volunteer
in one way or another, even people who volunteer to participate in
market research.
><snip/>
>
>
>
>>If you, or anyone else, wishes to bring in additional domain experts to
>>assist in developing and prioritizing user stories, I'm happy to have
>>the volunteers. This is a VOLUNTEER project, if someone wants to do
>>something that will help the project, then post on the list what you
>>want to do, and, unless someone brings up a cogent objection, go ahead
>>and do it.
>>
>>
>
>Fine. I want to find and interview domain experts.
>
>a) We have Dennis K. and the Install Fest folks.
>b) An event planner _per se_ (possibly a friend of Joseph's)
>c) Bryan has worked with people at ASU's Herberger College for the Performing
>Arts.
>d) I have volunteered for the city of Glendale, and might be able to find
>someone there who basically works as an event planner. Perhaps at the civic
>center or for the Libraries.
>e) I could go through the phone book calling funeral homes and wedding
>planners.
>f) I might be able to go down a couple of connections and find a concert
>promoter.
>g) I could call the major arenas and civic centers in the greater Phoenix
>area.
>h) In some municipalities, Parks, Rec, and/or Libraries do events -- like
>concerts in the park.
>i) I could call larger hotels and resorts that host conferences.
>j) I could call a large company, like MacDiznie, that plans many, many events.
>k) I could call the state and local party headquarters.
>l) I could try to get in touch with advance teams for marketing or political
>campaigns.
>
>I welcome ideas for others.
>
>More important, the EPPP coordinator needs to give me some direction. For
>example, I am guessing that since we want to focus on a full-fledged n-tier
>version, big diverse fish like Herberger, MacDiznie, and the resort chains
>take precedence over wedding planners who work with one computer out of their
>home.
>
>In short, I need managerial input on how to target the research.
>
>Also, I am thinking of signing up for one credit of independent study or some
>other form of university affiliation to force development of disclosure
>documents, third-party ethics review, and to give me a stronger basis to
>appeal for cooperation.
>
>
>
1) b) is a slight misunderstanding, I *USED* to work with a group of
people who spent their entire day planning events (mostly symposia with
a few conferences, diplomatic events, and such thrown in). I haven't
seen any of them in years, but I still remember much of what they did.
I have a general knowledge of event planning, for more details we'd need
volunteers like yourself to do just what you've offered to do.
2) Your guesses are right on target.
3) I would target in roughly this order (modify as opportunity arises).
a, c, d, [f, g, k, l, or j], h, i, e
4) Anything you believe would help in developing this system would be
appreciated.
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<br>
Trent Shipley wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid200503150034.24884.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Monday 2005-03-14 22:21, Joseph Sinclair wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Trent Shipley wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""><<SNIP>>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Integrating with ERP would just impose constraints without
providing any benefit in this case. None of the common functionality in
ERP/ERM will support any normal function in the event planning space,
unless the company is in the business of providing events, in which case
a relatively simple link into any existing ERP system would be
appropriate and sufficient.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">In my experience, there is NO SUCH THING as a "simple" link into an
existing ERPM. Peoplesoft, at least, doesn't do a good job of hiding its
data layer. There is no neat API. Usually you have to hack directly into
the database layer that is enormous and unspeakably complex.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">You're right, to an extent, but we're not going to get any help in that
arena by hooking into a particular platform either. The idea I
expressed is that our side of the link should be pretty simple, not that
the link interface on the other side would be simple, it won't, no
matter what platform we choose, because the major ERP vendors are
proprietary systems that create very high artificial barriers to entry
by hiding and obscuring their internal API's.
Note, there are open-technology ERP systems, but they're not widely used
at this point. If they ever do become more widespread, then we can
certainly look at including a strong integration to such systems as a
module in the base distribution of our system.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
I understand JS as saying that among EPP's (Event Planning and Production's)
design goals are:
1) It will be (relatively) simple to link into EPP from other software.
2a) EPPP (EPP Project) will facilitate #1 by producing a clear and open API(s)
2b) EPPP will document EPP's API(s)
</pre>
</blockquote>
Since I am "JS", I think my clarification should be taken as such, but
I'll repeat.<br>
1) I didn't say it would be simple to link to/from other software, only
that the EPP portion of said links would/should be simple. In most
cases, the other side of the link will be moderately to hideously
complex, depending on how amenable that software is to external links
(most proprietary software falls in the hideous range).<br>
2) It's EPP, not EPPP (Event Planning Project, no need to repeat
project twice).<br>
3) The EPP API's will be open for anyone with programming skill to see,
the code will be freely available. I don't anticipate huge API
documents (unless they're easy to generate, something like the JavaDoc
tool could help there).<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid200503150034.24884.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""><<SNIP>>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> Anyone who wants an NDA on their conversations isn't someone we want
to interview, no confidentiality (although we do respect individual
privacy, and names/personal data will be excised on request).
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
This is at odds with most sociology that I've done, even market research.
Even in market research you promise participants confidentiality and try to
provide anonymity. It should be impossible for an outsider to trace a datum
back to an individual participant.
In anthropology or journalism you at least guarantee plausible deniability and
aim for real confidentiality. Some looser ethical standards allow
researchers to use real names if the participant asks the researcher to do
so. Publishing "vital statistics" or histories is touchy, because it takes
so little data to effectively identify an individual.
(Note to self: Check ethical standards of Society for Applied Anthropology and
for market researchers' professional association.)
My professional expectation is that we should gather data. We need to gather
data ethically. Most important, we need to negotiate among ourselves and
with participants the boundaries for gathering data.
That said, most boiler plate NDAs are designed to be so restrictive that there
would be no reason to procede with research if a prospective participant
insisted on a non-negotiable non-disclosure agreement.
</pre>
</blockquote>
I agree with your conclusions, I think you misunderstood my original
paragraph.<br>
My understanding of the two terms is slightly different from yours.
Allow me to explain more fully.<br>
Confidentiality implies that any information gathered will be used
exclusively within the gathering organization, anonymity/privacy
implies that data gathered cannot be traced back to any individual. I
fully support anonymity and privacy. In fact, we probably shouldn't
gather personal details beyond the absolute minimum required to
accomplish the project goals. We cannot, however, agree that the
resultant requirements data would remain within the EPP, the documents
that contain the resultant should be available in the same packaging as
the source code. I expect that all project documents will be released
by the project under the GFDL, If there's disagreement on that, I'd
like to hear it. If you work with any of the major open source
foundations, you'll find they don't sign NDA's, nor do they require
others to sign them. The analysis and research associated with the
development effort is considered to be equivalent in nature to the
software itself, and the results should be available on similar terms.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid200503150034.24884.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap=""></pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> The software will be GPL, anyone who wants it will have access to
the community builds and to the full source code.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Yes, but it takes extra effort to provide information or rich feedback to
EPPP. Anyone can use a build, but if Jane Doe's Weddings or MacDiznie take
the time to tell us about how they do event planning and later how our
software is working out for them, then EPPP should give them "consideration".
That is just realistic.
</pre>
</blockquote>
We don't have any way to provide consideration, and I don't expect we
ever will. Again, look at other open-source projects, and you'll find
the same characteristic. Everyone working in open source is a
volunteer in one way or another, even people who volunteer to
participate in market research.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid200503150034.24884.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
<snip/>
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">If you, or anyone else, wishes to bring in additional domain experts to
assist in developing and prioritizing user stories, I'm happy to have
the volunteers. This is a VOLUNTEER project, if someone wants to do
something that will help the project, then post on the list what you
want to do, and, unless someone brings up a cogent objection, go ahead
and do it.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Fine. I want to find and interview domain experts.
a) We have Dennis K. and the Install Fest folks.
b) An event planner _per se_ (possibly a friend of Joseph's)
c) Bryan has worked with people at ASU's Herberger College for the Performing
Arts.
d) I have volunteered for the city of Glendale, and might be able to find
someone there who basically works as an event planner. Perhaps at the civic
center or for the Libraries.
e) I could go through the phone book calling funeral homes and wedding
planners.
f) I might be able to go down a couple of connections and find a concert
promoter.
g) I could call the major arenas and civic centers in the greater Phoenix
area.
h) In some municipalities, Parks, Rec, and/or Libraries do events -- like
concerts in the park.
i) I could call larger hotels and resorts that host conferences.
j) I could call a large company, like MacDiznie, that plans many, many events.
k) I could call the state and local party headquarters.
l) I could try to get in touch with advance teams for marketing or political
campaigns.
I welcome ideas for others.
More important, the EPPP coordinator needs to give me some direction. For
example, I am guessing that since we want to focus on a full-fledged n-tier
version, big diverse fish like Herberger, MacDiznie, and the resort chains
take precedence over wedding planners who work with one computer out of their
home.
In short, I need managerial input on how to target the research.
Also, I am thinking of signing up for one credit of independent study or some
other form of university affiliation to force development of disclosure
documents, third-party ethics review, and to give me a stronger basis to
appeal for cooperation.
</pre>
</blockquote>
1) b) is a slight misunderstanding, I *USED* to work with a group of
people who spent their entire day planning events (mostly symposia with
a few conferences, diplomatic events, and such thrown in). I haven't
seen any of them in years, but I still remember much of what they did.
I have a general knowledge of event planning, for more details we'd
need volunteers like yourself to do just what you've offered to do.<br>
2) Your guesses are right on target.<br>
3) I would target in roughly this order (modify as opportunity arises).<br>
a, c, d, [f, g, k, l, or j], h, i, e<br>
4) Anything you believe would help in developing this system would be
appreciated.<br>
<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>
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